O/T Democracy

[ragingpup]

You really are confused aren't you
Try reading what I posted not what you think I have posted
I have no issue with anyone expressing an opinion
But I refer you once again to the author's first paragraph where he espouses trashing the economy, triggering shortages of food and medicine
Not said as opinion but stated as fact
Do you now see what I mean?

[Sighs] Oh Lordy Lord.

How on earth can you take this columnist’s argument as anything other than his opinion. As a clue, that column is published under the newspaper section entitled ‘Opinion’.

Are you suggesting that any statement a person makes that isn’t accompanied by “I think…” or “in my opinion…” is intended to be a statement of fact? Come ooon!

[Galley On]

Abosolutely. Yet 17m voted Brexit without a plan or a clue what they'd get.

My first comment on this but over 16 million people voted to stay in the EU without truly knowing what they'd get. You do not honestly think that the EU will stay as it is do you? France and Ireland initially voted no to a Federal Europe but hey they had another vote. UK has now done the same and surprise surprise the lardy mardy arsed bad losers want a second referendum.

[Exiletyke]

[Sighs] Oh Lordy Lord.

How on earth can you take this columnist’s argument as anything other than his opinion. As a clue, that column is published under the newspaper section entitled ‘Opinion’.

Are you suggesting that any statement a person makes that isn’t accompanied by “I think…” or “in my opinion…” is intended to be a statement of fact? Come ooon!

Forgive me for confusing opinion with fact
Only 3 paragraphs later your columnist says "I believe" which in all honesty does just hint at "opinion" unlike 3 paragraphs earlier no such qualification which does just claim fact
Even bigger sigh

[Exiletyke]

But there is clear evidence that the developing EU worker’s standards have improved the working conditions of UK workers since they were introduced. The number of workers working more than 48 hours per week was significantly reduced following the working time directive.

The TUC give a reasonable discussion of those gained rights here:
https://www.tuc.org.uk/sites/default...20the%20EU.pdf

I hear you that these can be seen as ‘crumbs’ compared to what we should be setting, particularly if we’re going to increase our awful productivity record. But I think personally that a more balanced discussion on this should I think identify that we have gained significant improvement from the EU from what we had before, should acknowledge that a No Deal accompanied by more conservative control under present management is a huge risk to these rights as they are whilst encouraging Labour to look towards improvement on them if they gain power.

In your opinion who do you hold responsible for our "awful productivity record"?

[ragingpup]

In your opinion who do you hold responsible for our "awful productivity record"?

Very complicated Ex - I can only suggest in a simplistic way that at least part of the problem is the UK workforce, for whatever reason, and from directors down to shop floor, do not produce as much output as other countries looking at headline productivity data. My gut feeling from this is a mixture of people not fully engaging with their jobs. This could be due to poor pay and conditions in which they work, the cumulative result of the gig economy, the fact that we have high employment but poor employment quality. The bottom line is that people who are happy with their job, their pay and working conditions, on the whole are more productive, have more belief in their workplace, and put more work into their role, than people who are unhappy with their pay and conditions for whatever reason.

Opinion from a layman I admit, but seems common sense to me.

[Exiletyke]

Very complicated Ex - I can only suggest in a simplistic way that at least part of the problem is the UK workforce, for whatever reason, and from directors down to shop floor, do not produce as much output as other countries looking at headline productivity data. My gut feeling from this is a mixture of people not fully engaging with their jobs. This could be due to poor pay and conditions in which they work, the cumulative result of the gig economy, the fact that we have high employment but poor employment quality. The bottom line is that people who are happy with their job, their pay and working conditions, on the whole are more productive, have more belief in their workplace, and put more work into their role, than people who are unhappy with their pay and conditions for whatever reason.

Opinion from a layman I admit, but seems common sense to me.

Personally I have usually found an us & them culture which was & still is at large in many companies
Doesn't seem to be so in Germany for instance but perhaps someone may be able to speak with more authority on the subject than me
Don't disagree with much you have posted

[flourbasher]

Abosolutely. Yet 17m voted Brexit without a plan or a clue what they'd get.

This is the same with the misguided people insisting on a 'deal''
The details of any deal will not be finalised (by the EU telling the UK what they can have) until the end of the transition period.
This is a huge ongoing risk to the UK from the untrustworthy, selfish and undemocratic EU

So those that think a deal is the salvation should brace themselves for a lot of disappointment and reflection on how they've been let down...again.

[BigLadonOS]

I understand what you are getting at that we have no way of knowing what the future holds.

You should really have held your hands up and stopped at the bit above but also added that yes you are correct BIGLAD and people voting remain had as much clue as those voting leave.

The rest of the reply is yet again more theory and nothing more but you just cannot resist can you.

[great_fire]

Apparently these posh Tories like Sir Oliver Letwin, who've never thought the plebs should be allowed to vote, are "democrats".

You can tell that Blair and Mandelson are advising the Remainers behind the scenes because of all the double-speak.

[animallittle3]

You make interesting points animal. And I broadly agree with much (such as Labour supporting a compromise deal, but think that this might still happen in coming weeks) but please let me pick up your point on not doing ‘softer’ versions of neo-liberalism. By this are you saying that you want to move towards a completely different economic structure altogether or are you separating neo liberalism from capitalism? I’m wondering if you go beyond the idea of a social democracy, where a market economy is used to generate wealth under a more regulated state control (because wouldn’t we say that this is still neo liberalism?) into a communist/rigorous Marxist economic model? Maybe I’m just confusing neo-liberalism and capitalism here!

I believe this country has only known capitalism raging because as far as I'm aware we haven't ever been governed under a Marxist model .

The Labour Government after the second world war who built a huge amount of social housing ( so did the tories too when they regained power ) , created the NHS and the welfare state didn't as far as I can see make them communist governments , they were socially progressive and did so because there was a need .

Neoliberalism doesn't recognise such needs unless a huge profit can be gained from it , they only see life as one big business and investing in people is totally alien to them .

If you want me to invent a system that solves every issue we in the UK have today then I'm not going to be able to do that , mind you that said if you ask 10 economists to make a forecast then you will receive 10 different answers so perhaps they themselves aren't so clever either .

We are at a stage I feel where we were in 1948 with the working class in this country , they need investing in and badly , for many young people owning a home isn't going to happen but that doesn't mean they should have to accept poor rental homes with sky high rents either .

The current state of our services and the NHS need no further comment from me and its remarkable how run down and not fit for purpose they become under Neoliberal style governments , this isn't about cutting our cloth at all as Cameron tried to tell you this was a political choice because it doesn't chime with his or post 1979 tory governments .

If it doesn't make money then it's not worth investing in as I said previously the neoliberals don't do investing in people .

Neoliberalism has absolutely no place in our society , none what so ever .

Capitalism with proper investment in the needs of everyday people I can live with , Blair's life on benefits isn't investment by the way , that's just Labour hiding behind the Neoliberal umbrella and where Corbyn is going spectacularly wrong in the Brexit Heartlands .

You invest in people you create a better society , a more productive society a more motivated society and the benefits are obvious .

You cut and cut and cut back again and again and you isolate people , they then feel left out and they feel left behind , fertile ground for the right wing ideology to pounce upon , history has many examples .

So how do you tackle defeating the Neoliberal ideology ?

The same way they won the battle .

Now this is where I do agree with Corbyn , you challenge the mindset and change how people are currently programmed to think .

You robustly attack the extreme just like the Neoliberals did with social progressive policies , trade unions etc etc .

You turn the tax evaders in to the NUM , the Philip Greens and Mike Ashleys in to Jimmy Reed and Arthur Scargill , the bankers crashing the economy and austerity spin off as an industry of liability the country can no longer afford just like they did with the UK's major heavy industries and you pin the country as it stands today , fractured divided and the dirty man of europe right at their doorstep .

You get yourself elected and you give them what they gave us in the 80's and you end up with the balance you need .

You play fecking dirty , hardball and you knock these bstrds off their entitled perch .

This isn't about settling old scores this is about right and wrong because I'll tell you now we aren't where we are today just because of one referendum , this goes right to the core of what we are seeing today .

Now that's my taking back control starting with those feckers in Brussels , that's just the beginning .