O/T Ministers 'consider night ban for new drivers'

[KerrAvon]

I would imagine that if you were to represent someone in a similar scenario you would argue that it is careless driving? This is more like a freak accident.

On the other hand if someone is doing 45 in a 30 zone and kills a child then a 10 year sentence would be sufficient. This, in my opinion, would be classed as more dangerous than your example. If people are aware of the consequences then they have no excuse whether that is me, you or anyone else.

The bloke pleaded to causing death by dangerous driving and was sent to prison for his gross error of judgement. The law on dangerous driving is such that I don't think he had much chance of defending the case, but, as it goes, he was a decent person who was feeling incredibly guilty about what had happened wanted to put his hands up at the first opportunity.

Speeding by itself does not amount to dangerous driving and doing 45 in a 30 would not be prosecuted as such. Even if speeding alone was sufficient, you would struggle to find a jury who would convict simply because a competent defence advocate would slip into their minds the notion that just about everybody – including them -speeds at some point.

[Brin]

Which bit is a load of crap, Brin?

The UK does send a very high proportion of its population to prison compared with other countries. Does it help to cut crime? I'm not convinced.

I doubt whether you would be able to find many - if any - examples of men being given suspended sentences for knife attacks, but sentences are determined on a case by case basis, so fill your boots and prove me wrong.

Foreign nationals are certainly over represented in the prison population, but I would be careful with that. People from poorer backgrounds and with lower levels of educational attainment are also over represented and it may be that many recent immigrants fall into that latter group.

EU citizens can only be deported on grounds of public policy or public safety and regard has to be given to the right to a private and family life that were are lucky enough to enjoy under Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights, but plenty of EU national criminals are deported after they serve their sentence (or, in some cases, in order to serve their sentence.

In what way do you say the judicial syetem is Victorian, Brin?

Find one lol. All I had to do was go to the Sheffield Star and type in 'man with knife given suspended sentence' and eh presto!
This was a case from last year.


A 23-year-old man, who brandished a knife on a Sheffield street with the intention of 'killing' the man who had just attacked him, has been given a suspended sentence.
Sheffield Crown Court was told how just after 7.55pm on July 22 South Yorkshire Police were called out to The Wicker, after receiving reports of a man matching the description of defendant, Oumda Arja, brandishing a knife outside a barbers shop in the area.

Prosecuting, Neil Coxon, told the court that officers found Arja crossing Derek Dooley Way, and when they approached him he initially cooperated fully, and produced the eight-inch knife he was carrying in the left sleeve of his jacket.

After arresting Arja, officers noticed blood on the rear of the 23-year-old's jeans and discovered he had been stabbed in the back.

"When questioned about that, his attitude changed and he became aggressive and uncooperative," said Mr Coxon.

Arja, of Ellesmere Road, Burngreave, was taken to Northern General hospital for treatment.


Following this Mr Coxon told the court that Arja was interviewed by police after they reviewed CCTV from the barbers shop which showed him clearly waving the knife, gesticulating and appearing 'agitated'.

He said: "The defendant explained that he was walking near to The Wicker..and someone he didn't know bumped into him."

This led to an altercation that culminated in Arja, who told police he had been carrying a knife for the last 20 days due to being bullied by a man he does not known, being stabbed.

Mr Coxon added: "He admits chasing the male to the shop and requesting that he came outside.

"He told police he intended to do the same the same to him as 'he had done to me'.

"He was asked by police to clarify what he meant, and he said I would have stabbed him as he did to me.

"He does however say: 'I wouldn't have entered the shop unless the owner let me in, I would have stabbed him outside.

"My intention was to kill him, or be killed by him'."

Arja pleaded guilty to one count of affray and one count of possession of an offensive weapon in a public place at a hearing at Sheffield Magistrates' Court on August 23, when he was remanded into custody.

Defending, Richard Davies, told the court: "He [Arja] wishes to assure you, through me, that he will not conduct himself in the way he did on that day.


"Specifically, he will not carry a knife in future and if he gets himself in bother, if he gets bullied again, he will go to the police."

Recorder Jeremy Barnett sentenced Arja to two years in prison, suspended for two years, and ordered him to complete a 20-day rehabilitation activity requirement.

He said: "You are young, 23-years-old, of good character with no previous convictions.

Recorder Barnett added: "You have now said to me that you have changed your mind, and now accept that the law is correct and you will not carry this sort of weapon in public."


Just like I was saying, there is no deterrent for carrying bladed weapon these days and that is the reason so many youth carry them today. Would you like me to very quickly find you another case ?

[Brin]

Kerr....here's another to browse through, again from last year. I'm off now do enjoy your day.

A Sheffield man who brandished a knife during an early hours altercation on a city centre street has been given a suspended sentence.

The incident took place in Carver Street in the city centre at around 4.20am on July 8 this year, when city centre CCTV operators noticed that a defendant, Mohamed Otmani, and a group of males appeared to be involved in a fracas.

CCTV played during the sentencing hearing at Sheffield Crown Court today (Tuesday, August 14) showed Otmani, of Eldon Court, Sheffield city centre with a blade in his hand.

"We have no idea why it started, but it was seen by the CCTV operators, who called the police," prosecutor, Bev Tait, told the court.

She added: "Officers were able to arrest him there."

The court heard how officers recovered the knife from Otmani's car, after finding it stashed in the back seat of the vehicle.

Ms Tait added: "The defendant made full admissions in police interview. He said he had been involved in a disturbance, which was ongoing. Someone passed him a knife, but he refused to name them.

"He said it was a stupid, drunken mistake."

Otmani, who has no previous convictions, pleaded guilty to one count of possession of a knife or bladed article in a public place at an earlier hearing.

Defending, Zaiban Alam, told the court that no harm was caused to anyone during the incident and said the group of men were simply 'postulating' and had no intention to hurt one another.

She added: "This was conduct that was very much an aberration, as far as his manner and general conduct is concerned."


Recorder Duncan Smith sentenced Otmani to four months in prison, suspended for 12 months, and ordered him to complete 100 hours of unpaid work.

He told Otmani: "This was a very stupid thing that you did. Everybody, particularly people of your age, who like to go out and enjoy evenings out in the small hours of the morning should be able to do that without the problems that knife crime cases cause in this country, probably the world."

[KerrAvon]

I think you've missed the point, Brin. You said there were regular cases of men having attacked people armed with bladed knives, and I questioned whether you would be able to find examples of the same, but you've put up two examples without an attack.

Both of your examples relate to people without previous convictions and the first had been remanded in custody for several weeks before being sentenced.

[Grist_To_The_Mill]

Find one lol. All I had to do was go to the Sheffield Star and type in 'man with knife given suspended sentence' and eh presto!
This was a case from last year.


A 23-year-old man, who brandished a knife on a Sheffield street with the intention of 'killing' the man who had just attacked him, has been given a suspended sentence.
Sheffield Crown Court was told how just after 7.55pm on July 22 South Yorkshire Police were called out to The Wicker, after receiving reports of a man matching the description of defendant, Oumda Arja, brandishing a knife outside a barbers shop in the area.

Prosecuting, Neil Coxon, told the court that officers found Arja crossing Derek Dooley Way, and when they approached him he initially cooperated fully, and produced the eight-inch knife he was carrying in the left sleeve of his jacket.

After arresting Arja, officers noticed blood on the rear of the 23-year-old's jeans and discovered he had been stabbed in the back.

"When questioned about that, his attitude changed and he became aggressive and uncooperative," said Mr Coxon.

Arja, of Ellesmere Road, Burngreave, was taken to Northern General hospital for treatment.


Following this Mr Coxon told the court that Arja was interviewed by police after they reviewed CCTV from the barbers shop which showed him clearly waving the knife, gesticulating and appearing 'agitated'.

He said: "The defendant explained that he was walking near to The Wicker..and someone he didn't know bumped into him."

This led to an altercation that culminated in Arja, who told police he had been carrying a knife for the last 20 days due to being bullied by a man he does not known, being stabbed.

Mr Coxon added: "He admits chasing the male to the shop and requesting that he came outside.

"He told police he intended to do the same the same to him as 'he had done to me'.

"He was asked by police to clarify what he meant, and he said I would have stabbed him as he did to me.

"He does however say: 'I wouldn't have entered the shop unless the owner let me in, I would have stabbed him outside.

"My intention was to kill him, or be killed by him'."

Arja pleaded guilty to one count of affray and one count of possession of an offensive weapon in a public place at a hearing at Sheffield Magistrates' Court on August 23, when he was remanded into custody.

Defending, Richard Davies, told the court: "He [Arja] wishes to assure you, through me, that he will not conduct himself in the way he did on that day.


"Specifically, he will not carry a knife in future and if he gets himself in bother, if he gets bullied again, he will go to the police."

Recorder Jeremy Barnett sentenced Arja to two years in prison, suspended for two years, and ordered him to complete a 20-day rehabilitation activity requirement.

He said: "You are young, 23-years-old, of good character with no previous convictions.

Recorder Barnett added: "You have now said to me that you have changed your mind, and now accept that the law is correct and you will not carry this sort of weapon in public."


Just like I was saying, there is no deterrent for carrying bladed weapon these days and that is the reason so many youth carry them today. Would you like me to very quickly find you another case ?

Thing is Brin if the police were to start at the site of the incident and walk towards Spital Hill top doing stop and search they would find many carrying knives. They don't do it though because it's a no go predominantly Asian area. Even if they did and it went through the court system it's likely there will be a soft result as in your example. The only certainty though is that the case will be long and drawn out to maximise fees for the legal people.

[KerrAvon]

Thing is Brin if the police were to start at the site of the incident and walk towards Spital Hill top doing stop and search they would find many carrying knives. They don't do it though because it's a no go predominantly Asian area. Even if they did and it went through the court system it's likely there will be a soft result as in your example. The only certainty though is that the case will be long and drawn out to maximise fees for the legal people.

Eh? Both the cases that Brin put up involved early guilty pleas, Jolly...

[Shark27]

The bloke pleaded to causing death by dangerous driving and was sent to prison for his gross error of judgement. The law on dangerous driving is such that I don't think he had much chance of defending the case, but, as it goes, he was a decent person who was feeling incredibly guilty about what had happened wanted to put his hands up at the first opportunity.

Speeding by itself does not amount to dangerous driving and doing 45 in a 30 would not be prosecuted as such. Even if speeding alone was sufficient, you would struggle to find a jury who would convict simply because a competent defence advocate would slip into their minds the notion that just about everybody – including them -speeds at some point.

I would say speeding by itself does amount to dangerous driving considering it is one of the main factors involved in fatal accidents.

I'm not saying that is the law now but I think it should be looked at. I admit that there has to be some kind of view taken i.e. you get a higher sentence based on how much over the speed limit you are.

There's a 30mph road near me with a school on it. If someone coming home from work drives down that road at 45mph and kills someone they should have the book thrown at them. Maybe the judges and jury who are looking leniently because they have done it too will think twice before doing it again?

I see buses, skip wagons, cars hurtling down the road on a daily basis.

[KerrAvon]

Speeding can certainly be a factor in dangerous driving, but someone tanking it down an empty motorway in the early hours is probably only endangering himself.

In your example, speeding past a school at kicking out time where there are lots of children (and probably badly parked cars) around is edging towards the point where the driving would be charged as dangerous, but I doubt whether 45 would be considered fast enough. I’ve seen a case prosecuted as causing death by careless driving in circumstances that aren’t too different from your example (it was an adult rather than kid who was killed, but that makes no difference to the principle).

As I said, the problem the prosecution would have is that most of the jury would be aware that they - like most of the driving population – speed.

[Shark27]

Speeding can certainly be a factor in dangerous driving, but someone tanking it down an empty motorway in the early hours is probably only endangering himself.

In your example, speeding past a school at kicking out time where there are lots of children (and probably badly parked cars) around is edging towards the point where the driving would be charged as dangerous, but I doubt whether 45 would be considered fast enough. I’ve seen a case prosecuted as causing death by careless driving in circumstances that aren’t too different from your example (it was an adult rather than kid who was killed, but that makes no difference to the principle).

As I said, the problem the prosecution would have is that most of the jury would be aware that they - like most of the driving population – speed.

I suppose there's one of the main reasons why there will always be too many deaths on our roads then.

[great_fire]

Which bit is a load of crap, Brin?

The UK does send a very high proportion of its population to prison compared with other countries. Does it help to cut crime? I'm not convinced.

It cuts the crime of the criminals who are in prison because they're not out committing crimes!

Should lock more up not fewer.