O/T:- The NHS strike - for or against?

[Elite_Pie]

My point exactly. Nurses in the NHS know what they are signing up for. They know the pay. They know the hours and commitment needed. It’s not as though nurses are asked to work 60 hours a week and are not paid appropriately - they are. They are paid a basic. They are paid extra for nights, Saturday pay and Sunday pay. They are also paid overtime. They get paid for the hours they put in.

That is just not true. Firstly, nurses didn't sign up to be understaffed. It's happening more and more, and it's the main reason so many are leaving the profession. They are being put in a position where they can't do the job they signed up to do because they are often trying to do two jobs. And if you think they get paid for the hours they put in, you are living in cloud cuckoo land. I'll give you a real example when I get time.

[upthemaggies]

If you travel almost anywhere in the World you will find people admire the fact that healthcare is provided free of charge when people in the UK need it, regardless of ability to pay.

And yet we're the least healthy nation in the developed world. It's a system that infantilises people and discourages them from taking responsibility for their own health, alcohol in-take in particular which apparently creates the biggest strain of all on NHS resources.

It was a great idea when it was introduced at a time when large swathes of the population were still living in Victorian conditions (see those photographs of bare-foot unwashed malnourished kids on the inner city streets taken as late as the 1960s). It's not fit for purpose in the 21st century however.

[sidders]

And yet we're the least healthy nation in the developed world. It's a system that infantilises people and discourages them from taking responsibility for their own health, alcohol in-take in particular which apparently creates the biggest strain of all on NHS resources.

It was a great idea when it was introduced at a time when large swathes of the population were still living in Victorian conditions (see those photographs of bare-foot unwashed malnourished kids on the inner city streets taken as late as the 1960s). It's not fit for purpose in the 21st century however.

You disappoint me with this post, utm. From what source do you draw your opening statement? My own life survives purely because a wonderful surgeon performed a tricky operation in the nick of time. He told me that he had given me an extra 6 years' life. Well, I'm still here 12 years on.
The nanny state does indeed infantilise some people but balance that against the number whose lives are transformed by access to care and information. In the US my condition would have reduced me to penury purely by chance. I have always eaten sensibly and exercised regularly so my aneurysm wasn't a result of my own carelessness.
Don't throw out the baby etc. The NHS needs reform but its founding principles hold good to this day. I'd rather it had the power to reform itself than be thrown to Tory politicians and their open pockets.

[DomdomPie]

Definitely with the nurses on this one. Low pay is contributing to thousands of nurses leaving the NHS, leaving wards either short staffed or reliant on agency nurses. NHS Trusts spend billions on agency workers every year, so they’re constantly chasing their tails in terms of spiralling costs and deteriorating services. We need a strong government to step in and make a stand on this: if we value NHS nurses then they need to be paid accordingly. It may cost more in the short term but a well staffed and functioning NHS will only benefit our economy and society in the long run. This should be number one priority coming out of a pandemic where NHS workers were rightly applauded for their amazing service to this country.

[sinophile]

Since we are going to get into an economic discussion of the affects of a pay increase for NHS staff, consider what would happen to the actual money they receive. The very basic answer is that they would spend it (their marginal propensity to consume is very high). When they spend it they pay VAT. There is a boost to retailers in increased trade, they pay tax, they also order more of the goods they sell, which boosts production in manufacturing. This leads to an increase in employment (existing workers might be paid more. Private sector pay rises are roughly 2 to 3 times more than public sector workers). These are known as multiplier effects.The estimate of the amount the exchequer would get back from any pay increase is 81%. Inflation only occurs when the money supply is not matched by an increase in economic activity. What people also overlook is that a 10% pay rise is not matched by a 10% increase in the money supply. It is a much smaller proportion. A 10% pay increase would cost £3.4bn on paper, but only actually be £660m when the above is taken into account.

The money supply is around £3 trillion. An increase of £660m is a drop in the ocean and would have barely any effect on inflation.

[GranthamPie]

£30 billion on a Covid Track and Trace App, developed by Tory mates of mates… never worked.

£14 billion on PPE, supplied by “VIP” Tory mates of mates… unfit for purpose and now lying in shipping containers on disused airfields across the country.

£16 billion lost to criminals for “job retention schemes” and furlough during covid… immediately written off by Sunak (strange that)

£30 billion lost to the country after the Truss/Kwarteng budget… including millions of pensions. Has anyone had an updated pension statement lately?… I have… It’s lost thousands!

I won’t even mention the loss of revenue to businesses in this country during the botched Brexit… tens and tens of billions.

So, during the last 4 years, the Tories (“don’t trust Labour with the economy”) have managed to spaff over £100 billion up a wall.

They then have the audacity to tell ordinary workers that they must not call for wage increases as this will fuel inflation!… whilst relaxing rules on banks and bankers bonuses !

Yes… I know my enemy

[OP67]

The NHS has been underfunded, understaffed and lacking in serious investment for decades by various governments that have found it harder and harder to keep it going. Alyone waiting for the land of milk and honey promised by a Labour government in 2024 will be disappointed. There needs to a completely different way of thinking about the way it's funded in future and most people will not like it. 19% pay rise is a crazy amount and can olny be funded by cuts elsewhere.

My brother went private for a simple treatment the other year and it was a completely different world. I remember trying to get a graph of my mothers weight at the QMC years ago. Considering that the loss of weight was the reason she was in there they couldn't supply me with one. Instead turned up with a book that they'd written it down in when they remembered, absolute disgrace. It is in no longer fit for purpose!!!!!

[Magpies1959]

Correct magpie_mania I don't know any supermarket workers that are on £33,000 a year. This dispute started as a cry for more pay to stop them using food banks, and as support for the strike is not so popular now, they are chirping about it now being all about staffing levels and not being able to look after patients in the way they would like.
A 19% pay increase for a nurse would mean them receiving an extra £120 pounds a week, (let that sink in) which is funded by the tax payer, who then ends up at the food bank
sinophile, yes lets all pay more tax so the NHS staff can have lots of money to spend. Big question is how do the poor b*ggers making all these extra goods the nurses are buying, get a pay rise, as the vast majority would not be in a union and chances are their bosses would pocket all the extra money made from the sale of these items.
Elite_Pie many workers take home far less pay and work in far worse conditions than NHS staff but do not have a union to hold the country to ransom. Compared to the jobs I had in my working career, I would be as happy as a pig in sh*t working for the NHS.

[Elite_Pie]

This dispute started as a cry for more pay to stop them using food banks, and as support for the strike is not so popular now, they are chirping about it now being all about staffing levels and not being able to look after patients in the way they would like.

That is a complete and utter lie. It's just something you've made up.

[sinophile]

The tax I'm talking about is VAT and income tax. It means paying the same rates, it is more revenue for the government due to increased economic activity, not just increasing tax rates as some would believe. Regarding public sector pay and private sector pay, private sector pay increases are roughly 2 to 3 times that of the public sector. There must be some very strong unions in the private sector! I'm pleased you accept the basic point I've made, though.