O/T:- ⚠️Impressed with the leadership [The UK Party Politics Thread]

[i961pie]

Why? That's how politics works. Those in charge do what they believe is right, and either bring the people along or get kicked out.

Brexit isn't any different. If it had been demonstrated how it would make things better, and help was asked for, it'd have been given. Indeed the country voted for an oven ready deal to get it over with (a lie, sadly, since it was always going to be an ongoing process to define our relationship with the EU). But Brexiters abdicating responsibility for their choice - nope, they don't get to do that. Make it work, or get out the way and let someone else take a different approach.

I think most brexiters would point to the Covid epidemic and the war in Ukraine as being a major problem with how it’s gone so far. It was always going to take a long time before we would or wouldn’t see any benefits to us but those two things in particular were unseen.

[Mapperleypie]

That is exactly what's wrong.

The referendum was called by the Tories and the negotiations were all done by the last government. This is their Brexit, red-lines, sunlit-uplands, ruffled hair and all. A complete waste of government time and money to make the UK worse off, sold to the public on a pack of lies.

If Labour do want to fix any of this then they would need closer trading ties with Europe given they are our largest export market by far but the usual suspects will simply cry foul. As it is we have gone from being round the table in trading negotiations to simply a rule-taker. A national embarrassment.

[SmiffyPie]

The referendum was called by the Tories and the negotiations were all done by the last government. This is their Brexit, red-lines, sunlit-uplands, ruffled hair and all. A complete waste of government time and money to make the UK worse off, sold to the public on a pack of lies.

If Labour do want to fix any of this then they would need closer trading ties with Europe given they are our largest export market by far but the usual suspects will simply cry foul. As it is we have gone from being round the table in trading negotiations to simply a rule-taker. A national embarrassment.

Of course your points are valid, nobody is denying that, but what do we do about it? sit around wringing out our tear soaked handkerchiefs?
Anyway, onwards and upwards.

[Mapperleypie]

Of course your points are valid, nobody is denying that, but what do we do about it? sit around wringing out our tear soaked handkerchiefs?
Anyway, onwards and upwards.

No, we do what Starmer is now doing, meeting European leaders and stating the case for the UK and how we can best work together as opposed to the adversarial stance of the last government.

[bule1]

The referendum was called by the Tories and the negotiations were all done by the last government. This is their Brexit, red-lines, sunlit-uplands, ruffled hair and all. A complete waste of government time and money to make the UK worse off, sold to the public on a pack of lies.

If Labour do want to fix any of this then they would need closer trading ties with Europe given they are our largest export market by far but the usual suspects will simply cry foul. As it is we have gone from being round the table in trading negotiations to simply a rule-taker. A national embarrassment.

You are correct the Tories called for the vote but as a balance there were a large amount of Labour voters who voted leave and Corbyn did one of the best fence sitting displays we have ever seen when maybe offering a lead (as perhaps a leader should) woulod have been better.
P.S. Don't think for a second I believe that Cameron did any better.

[SmiffyPie]

No, we do what Starmer is now doing, meeting European leaders and stating the case for the UK and how we can best work together as opposed to the adversarial stance of the last government.

Yep.

[Mapperleypie]

You are correct the Tories called for the vote but as a balance there were a large amount of Labour voters who voted leave and Corbyn did one of the best fence sitting displays we have ever seen when maybe offering a lead (as perhaps a leader should) woulod have been better.
P.S. Don't think for a second I believe that Cameron did any better.

I agree, Corbyn was a disaster during the Brexit referendum, the Labour for Brexit schtick was completely wrong-headed.

The vote should never have been a thing, it was divisive for us all and ultimately a complete waste of government time.

We are where we are now and Starmer, for all his failings, it trying to be the adult in the room with a truly awful hand at the EU negotiating table.

[Med Pie]

I agree, Corbyn was a disaster during the Brexit referendum, the Labour for Brexit schtick was completely wrong-headed.

The vote should never have been a thing, it was divisive for us all and ultimately a complete waste of government time.

We are where we are now and Starmer, for all his failings, it trying to be the adult in the room with a truly awful hand at the EU negotiating table.

I thought Corbyn had promised a complete U-turn on Brexit if they got in, said by many to be one of the reasons they were routed?

The biggest problem from Brexit is that we never negotiated a similar deal to the Dublin agreement which would have seen us able to send the boat people back to France but history shows us that the French will do anything to screw the British.

One of our biggest areas of leverage which a Trump like figure would instantly leap upon is fishing licences,. Our waters are among the richest in the World and he'd have sent (what little remains) the Navy to police the waters and protect our trawlers and not least the fish stocks. Successive governments have been weak and ineffective negotiators and Starmer should be very careful as to what he agrees to in Europe. If he has any chance remaining of a second term, agreements which could be perceived as back sliding on Brexit, will end him for sure.

[Old_pie]

The referendum was called by the Tories and the negotiations were all done by the last government. This is their Brexit, red-lines, sunlit-uplands, ruffled hair and all. A complete waste of government time and money to make the UK worse off, sold to the public on a pack of lies.

If Labour do want to fix any of this then they would need closer trading ties with Europe given they are our largest export market by far but the usual suspects will simply cry foul. As it is we have gone from being round the table in trading negotiations to simply a rule-taker. A national embarrassment.

We were at constant loggerheads and not aligned with the majority of Europe ever since Maastrich (on which the public did NOT have a vote). The Tories got in because they promised a referendum. It should have been no great surprise then that the referendum voted out. I voted out but I have to say I was unhappy with the haphazard and divisive way it was done, but then I'm unhappy with many of the things that Broken Britain does. We seem to have lost the art of honest and capable leaders.

Nations have always traded throughout history. Even bitter enemies after a war soon resume trading. But of course we lost the art of negotiating trade deals when we let the faceless autocrats of Europe in their ivory towers do it all for us.

Being run from Brussels was a national embarrassment. The fact that we needed to be run from Brussels is a bigger national embarrassment. If Starmer can't get his act together the national embarrassment will continue. But we've been going down the pan from the times of "we have never had it so good", and probably since the turn of the last century (God Bless Victoria).

[magpie_mania]

I thought Corbyn had promised a complete U-turn on Brexit if they got in, said by many to be one of the reasons they were routed?

The biggest problem from Brexit is that we never negotiated a similar deal to the Dublin agreement which would have seen us able to send the boat people back to France but history shows us that the French will do anything to screw the British.

One of our biggest areas of leverage which a Trump like figure would instantly leap upon is fishing licences,. Our waters are among the richest in the World and he'd have sent (what little remains) the Navy to police the waters and protect our trawlers and not least the fish stocks. Successive governments have been weak and ineffective negotiators and Starmer should be very careful as to what he agrees to in Europe. If he has any chance remaining of a second term, agreements which could be perceived as back sliding on Brexit, will end him for sure.

'agreements which could be perceived as back sliding on Brexit, will end him for sure.'

The problem as I see it is that as soon as there is any communication with the EU, the hardened brexiteers have the loudest voices and cry foul. They then claim that it is just a back-door into the EU again.

We have already shot ourselves in the foot imo by leaving - and while I understand and accept that, I can't understand why some are so opposed to us making the most of where we are now.