O/T:- Lewis Hamilton

[BigFatPie]

I agree it's basic stuff, but I seem to remember getting some push back at the time when I wrote that the data suggested that events like George Floyd's death were not necessarily the racially inspired executions they were portrayed to be, and that in relation to number of interactions with police, black people were no more likely to be killed by police than white people.

I also remember getting push back when suggesting that investing in all deprived areas would help black people but also underprivileged white people, while at the same time creating a less divided society.

I can't remember if it was you who was pushing back (I'll check later) but anyway it seems you agree with those premises at this point in time (happy to stand corrected if wrong).

I think the fact that BLM has got a revolutionary left winger like your good self defending the right of multi millionaires to not pay any tax is a sign of how effective they are. To me, opting to live in a tax haven does impact on a person's authority (but not their right, obviously) to talk about social issues and underprivileged sections of society who depend largely on taxpayer funded schemes to improve their lot.

Ironically I've seen the objection to white people expressing concern for black people without giving money to the cause expressed more by BLM activists than I have on here.

I don't know why people on here dislike Hamilton. Some Notts County fans are almost certainly, by the law of averages, racists. According to your input yesterday 40% of the UK population and 22% of Labour voters are 'massive racists', so that would easily explain that.

https://www.newscientist.com/article...-white-people/


Black people suffer more poverty AND they suffer disproportionate discrimination by the police. A black person is far more likely to be killed by the police in the US than a white person. Further down the linked article it suggests that this injustice may be partly explained by the fact that black people have more interactions with the police, but it also suggests the reasons for many of those interactions are discriminatory. The evidence is mixed.

I am in no way am defending the right of anyone to pay less/no tax, I was describing things as they are. It would be much better if Hamilton and others paid their tax in the UK, but it doesn’t disqualify them from activism/symbolism if they don’t and I think Hamilton gets more criticism for this than if he were white. I haven’t seen it on here but elsewhere I’ve seen it said that he’s a disgrace for not paying his tax but Trump is a financial genius!

[drillerpie]

https://www.newscientist.com/article...-white-people/


The evidence is mixed.

Well this is definitely progress. I remember in our last conversation you quite mockingly put the word data in inverted commas when referring to the statistics I wanted you to digest. So now we are having an evidence based discussion. Cool.

So we can see there are different outcomes for different ethnicities, and obviously activists love to assign any differences to racism/***ism/transphobia etc. Nobody ever calls them out on it, so frankly who can blame them.

Can you think of any other factors that might influence these different outcomes?

The disparity seems quite high in Chicago. Can you think of anything happening in Chicago that might partially or wholly explain that? Or are you going to fall into the 'correlation must mean causation' fallacy?

[BigFatPie]

Well this is definitely progress. I remember in our last conversation you quite mockingly put the word data in inverted commas when referring to the statistics I wanted you to digest. So now we are having an evidence based discussion. Cool.

So we can see there are different outcomes for different ethnicities, and obviously activists love to assign any differences to racism/***ism/transphobia etc. Nobody ever calls them out on it, so frankly who can blame them.

Can you think of any other factors that might influence these different outcomes?

The disparity seems quite high in Chicago. Can you think of anything happening in Chicago that might partially or wholly explain that? Or are you going to fall into the 'correlation must mean causation' fallacy?

The way you word your posts sometimes reminds me with horror of my GCSEs. And isn’t the phrase ‘correlation doesn’t always equal causation’?

I’ve no idea what could be happening in Chicago to explain the disparity. Please explain.

On a more general point, I think you may be guilty of the ‘throwing the baby out with the bath water’ fallacy, in which what you see are the faults with anti-racism campaigns lead you to think that there’s not much racism or that it shouldn’t be combatted at all. I’m currently reading ‘Why I’m No Longer Talking to White People About Race’. It’s very enlightening.

[drillerpie]

The way you word your posts sometimes reminds me with horror of my GCSEs. And isn’t the phrase ‘correlation doesn’t always equal causation’?

I’ve no idea what could be happening in Chicago to explain the disparity. Please explain.

On a more general point, I think you may be guilty of the ‘throwing the baby out with the bath water’ fallacy, in which what you see are the faults with anti-racism campaigns lead you to think that there’s not much racism or that it shouldn’t be combatted at all. I’m currently reading ‘Why I’m No Longer Talking to White People About Race’. It’s very enlightening.

Correlation doesn't always equal causation is correct, hence correlation must mean causation is a fallacy.

A lot of people analyse data by ethnicity (or gender or religion or ***uality) and explain the disparities with discrimination, as if it was the only explanation for anything.

I don't think I'm guilty of throwing the baby out of the bathwater. I also don't think my position has changed since the last conversation we had, but I'll clarify it to be on the safe side. I think that racism exists and is A Bad Thing, but you can't stop it with t-shirts or by kneeling down. I also think that what is commonly referred to as systemic racism is basically systemic lack of educational economic opportunity, which in my opinion affects socio-economic groups of all ethnicities, and should be tackled as such.

I don't think racism shouldn't be combatted, I think we have actually done a fine job in combatting it. I just think that we should aim for a colour blind society, rather than having someone's race as the most interesting and relevant thing about them.

I'd love to know how you have been enlightened by your book, if you care to share it. Don't want to spoil any surprises but I'm guessing that anyone who doesn't swallow critical race theory hook, line, and sinker, is in denial about being, as you would say, a massive racist.

[drillerpie]

Oh yes, Chicago - I'll presume you're just playing dumb on that one.

[upthemaggies]

Correlation doesn't always equal causation is correct, hence correlation must mean causation is a fallacy.

A lot of people analyse data by ethnicity (or gender or religion or ***uality) and explain the disparities with discrimination, as if it was the only explanation for anything.

I don't think I'm guilty of throwing the baby out of the bathwater. I also don't think my position has changed since the last conversation we had, but I'll clarify it to be on the safe side. I think that racism exists and is A Bad Thing, but you can't stop it with t-shirts or by kneeling down. I also think that what is commonly referred to as systemic racism is basically systemic lack of educational economic opportunity, which in my opinion affects socio-economic groups of all ethnicities, and should be tackled as such.

I don't think racism shouldn't be combatted, I think we have actually done a fine job in combatting it. I just think that we should aim for a colour blind society, rather than having someone's race as the most interesting and relevant thing about them.

I'd love to know how you have been enlightened by your book, if you care to share it. Don't want to spoil any surprises but I'm guessing that anyone who doesn't swallow critical race theory hook, line, and sinker, is in denial about being, as you would say, a massive racist.

Are there any stats regards African immigrants to the US in the last 20 years or so? I've heard a few people on podcasts suggest that they are doing very well for themselves.

[BigFatPie]

Correlation doesn't always equal causation is correct, hence correlation must mean causation is a fallacy.

A lot of people analyse data by ethnicity (or gender or religion or ***uality) and explain the disparities with discrimination, as if it was the only explanation for anything.

I don't think I'm guilty of throwing the baby out of the bathwater. I also don't think my position has changed since the last conversation we had, but I'll clarify it to be on the safe side. I think that racism exists and is A Bad Thing, but you can't stop it with t-shirts or by kneeling down. I also think that what is commonly referred to as systemic racism is basically systemic lack of educational economic opportunity, which in my opinion affects socio-economic groups of all ethnicities, and should be tackled as such.

I don't think racism shouldn't be combatted, I think we have actually done a fine job in combatting it. I just think that we should aim for a colour blind society, rather than having someone's race as the most interesting and relevant thing about them.

I'd love to know how you have been enlightened by your book, if you care to share it. Don't want to spoil any surprises but I'm guessing that anyone who doesn't swallow critical race theory hook, line, and sinker, is in denial about being, as you would say, a massive racist.

‘but you can’t stop it with t-shirts or by kneeling down’. ‘...explain the disparities with discrimination, as if it was the only explanation for anything’. The critical thinker speaks. You just can’t help simplifying and mischaracterising the position of those who don’t agree with you, certainly on this issue at least.

I’m fully aware that lack of opportunity is a problem which affects all groups, particularly when they elect governments as poor as the one we have. However, if you’re pretending that people of colour don’t have additional obstacles which the white community don’t face, I can’t agree. Don’t just read the article which I linked to above, read the references which it contains. Read the book I mentioned, rather than come to a conclusion which you’ve just guessed. It may well be of greater value than following academics who waste everyone’s time by sending fake studies off to journals. Read the actual experience of people who have suffered discrimination as well as William Coulston and er Patrick O’Flynn.

And honestly, 100% positively, with a cherry on top, I don’t know what in particular it is about Chicago which makes it a special case.

[drillerpie]

Are there any stats regards African immigrants to the US in the last 20 years or so? I've heard a few people on podcasts suggest that they are doing very well for themselves.

I've seen Nigerian immigrants cited as an example of this quite a lot. I'm not sure which stats would be useful here, maybe educational attainment, employment rates, average salary, crime rates etc?

[upthemaggies]

^Collectively they might suggest that the system isn't working for a specific community, rather than black people per se.
If it is true that the first generation of slaves were all separated from one another, so that they couldn't communicate and as a consequence of that, are a cultural void other than their recent (in historical terms) and almost exclusively negative American experience. And if it is also true that this demographic has difficulty in reconnecting with its' African roots out of resentment at being, to put it in euphemistic terms, rejected by its' mother continent - Then the re-enforcement of the idea that they are victims of oppression and continue to be so would surely be the worst thing you could do. So appallingly stupid in fact, that you could only conclude that there was an ulterior motive.

[drillerpie]

You just can’t help simplifying and mischaracterising the position of those who don’t agree with you, certainly on this issue at least.

Hmm. You might want to re-read, erm, pretty much all your posts ever, to grasp the full irony of that statement.

I’m fully aware that lack of opportunity is a problem which affects all groups, particularly when they elect governments as poor as the one we have. However, if you’re pretending that people of colour don’t have additional obstacles which the white community don’t face, I can’t agree.

People of colour can have varying level of difficulties depending on an almost infinite number of variables, exactly the same as white people. Plus, please tell me what the point is in enacting a socially divisive strategy to fix any issues when the solution, and we seem to agree on this at least, is the same for all groups?

Read the book I mentioned, rather than come to a conclusion which you’ve just guessed.

I actually asked you to share how you had been enlightened. I hope you will as I'm very curious to know.

academics who waste everyone’s time by sending fake studies off to journals. Read the actual experience of people who have suffered discrimination as well as William Coulston and er Patrick O’Flynn.

I already know people who have suffered racial discrimination first hand. I don't consider sending fake studies to journals as waste of time. I consider it very important and very brave work. Peer reviewed scientific journals are (or at least should be) the holy grail of science. If they are corrupted then we revert back to a pre-scientific state of being. Maybe you can't understand how important that is, but thankfully lots of people can.

And honestly, 100% positively, with a cherry on top, I don’t know what in particular it is about Chicago which makes it a special case.

Chicago is famous for its extremely high levels of black on black gun violence. I'm surprised you don't know that. Or maybe I'm not.

I was also surprised there was no mention of this in your article, and no attempt to contextualise the high number of black men killed by police there. Or maybe I wasn't.

Anyway the police in Chicago (and several other major US cities) have pretty much stopped pro-actively policing black communities since the BLM demonstrations. They don't want to be the next guy going global if it turns, as unfortunately it often does, into an altercation, so they just don't bother.

Now that you know that, and seeing as you're a huge fan of black lives, maybe you could tell me how the number of gun related deaths in Chicago this year compares to other recent years? Think of it as a glimpse of the sunlit uplands when the police have been defunded.