O/T Sarah Champion

[monty_rhodes]

Raging pup makes some decent points. Brassgnat is simply idiotic. Although "moderate Muslims" do not advocate stoning for kids dancing as I pointed out on here some weeks ago quoting a female Muslim journalist from Manchester it is a very widely held view in UK Muslim communities that discos and pop concerts are "sinful". If people can't see that such a view is likely to encourage some head banger to bomb a concert they are being wilfully blind.
I place my personal experience above the platitudes of the Islamophiles on here. I have discussed issues such as the fatwah on Rushdie and the attacks on cartoonists with "moderate" UK Muslims. At first they express disapproval of these. But (there's always a "but") Rushdie shouldn't have published the book and the cartoons were insulting the Prophet and they shouldn't. Right, I ask, what if they ignore your advice and continue? The authorities must act to stop them, they say. Right, I persist, what if the authorities decide free speech trumps the right of Muslims not to be offended. Well, they always grudgingly admit, if so obviously there will be consequences. Consequences,eh. And what do our "hug a Jihadist" mob on here think those moderate Muslims imagine those "consequences" to be?

[ragingpup]

Raging pup makes some decent points. Brassgnat is simply idiotic. Although "moderate Muslims" do not advocate stoning for kids dancing as I pointed out on here some weeks ago quoting a female Muslim journalist from Manchester it is a very widely held view in UK Muslim communities that discos and pop concerts are "sinful". If people can't see that such a view is likely to encourage some head banger to bomb a concert they are being wilfully blind.
I place my personal experience above the platitudes of the Islamophiles on here. I have discussed issues such as the fatwah on Rushdie and the attacks on cartoonists with "moderate" UK Muslims. At first they express disapproval of these. But (there's always a "but") Rushdie shouldn't have published the book and the cartoons were insulting the Prophet and they shouldn't. Right, I ask, what if they ignore your advice and continue? The authorities must act to stop them, they say. Right, I persist, what if the authorities decide free speech trumps the right of Muslims not to be offended. Well, they always grudgingly admit, if so obviously there will be consequences. Consequences,eh. And what do our "hug a Jihadist" mob on here think those moderate Muslims imagine those "consequences" to be?

Fair observations here Monty. I think the voices of public figures who originate from the Muslim culture are well worth listening to. I have had similar discussions with 'moderate' Muslims down here and generally find that they are angry with the more extreme people who both carry out the atrocities and the people of which you speak, who hold archaic attitudes within their communities and oppose the blending of Muslims into the UK society (again they see these as minorities within their community) but they are especially angry at the now common place Islamophobia and hate crimes to which they are now more subjected to and scared of.

I think maybe the reason that we have different findings from the people we speak to come from our different locations? In my experience, there is a norm of cultural mixing and no one really speaks of of it whereas I notice that Rotherham is still very segregated between different communities (we still have non mixing communities down here who will probably give very different response to the people whose kids attend our college and my daughter's school).

Anyhoo - I welcome your more balanced stance on this (whaty I feel is a horribly) complex issue and hope that we can encourage the continuing challenging of the attitudes of which you speak where they occur whilst simultaneously "keeping our s*it together" and not making things harder than they are by alienating the majority (in my opinion!) of law abiding Muslims who are willing to integrate and move forwards with us.

[ragingpup]

Why don't you google "grooming gang statistics" and post your findings you anti-white racist idiot. You, and people like you, are the exact reason this was swept under the carpet for years in Rotherham and other places. Your own MP can see it, why can't you?

Hi Heliosphan,

Not sure why the abuse? How does that help?

Always wanting to learn more I did what you asked and put "grooming gang statistics" into Google and looked into the top two results:

1. The Children's Society
https://www.childrenssociety.org.uk/...oaAqjdEALw_wcB

This is quite a general article focusing on child ***ual exploitation overall rather than focusing on grooming gangs but it found that regarding all types of ***ual abuse (for shouldn't we be focusing our anger on all types of ***ual abuse?) these are the common traits of abusers:
-An adult or another young person
-Male or female
-Any ethnicity
-Visible in everyday life
-Articulate, plausible and ‘savvy’

2. FullFact.org
https://fullfact.org/crime/grooming-...caArDZEALw_wcB

This is more focused on 'gang related grooming' and is very interesting. They focused on two reports with some conclusions on racial groups of offenders.

Firstly the OCC inquiry which "looked at child ***ual exploitation committed in England by gangs and other groups.". It found that:
36% of perpetrators of gang or group related ***ual violence were white
27% were asian
16% were of an undisclosed ethnicity.
The majority of child victims of gang or group related ***ual violence (60%) were recorded as "white", with unknown making up the second largest category at 14%."

The CEOP report also focused on police data to look at patterns of abuse in gang grooming and found that "According to data submitted by 31 police forces, in 2012 there were 57 groups who were known or suspected of ***ually abusing teenagers and young adults on the basis of their vulnerability (rather than as a result of a specific interest in children). The abuse in these cases involved physical contact. Of these groups:

50% of were all-Asian, 21% all-white, and 17% included members from multiple ethnicities.
24% of group-members were under 20, and 53% were between 20 and 30.
67% of the groups were of four or fewer men"

Fullfact.org noted that there were a couple of reporting issues that should be taken into account:

1. (from the OCC ...during site visits it was apparent that agencies frequently focused on the model of ***ual exploitation identified in high profile cases such as those in Derby and Rochdale. Perpetrators, like victims, had similar individual characteristics to those featured in those cases. As a result this was the specific pattern of abuse professionals looked out for. They often told the panel that the perpetrator groups were 'Asian' without a more detailed analysis, including whether this label referred to nationality or ethnicity. The Inquiry was informed in several site visits of groups of perpetrators who were described generically as 'Asian' but who, upon further investigation, turned out to include Afghan, Kurdish and White British perpetrators.

2. The report also identified similar tendencies when profiling victims, with professionals sometimes mistakenly characterising them as being predominantly white even when this wasn't the case.

3. There's also evidence to suggest that the data is skewed by a tendency of authorities to record the ethnicity of some groups more often than others - the OCC report also said that "it is evident that data are more proactively gathered on men and boys of Pakistani and Kurdish origin".

4. And the recorded crimes might not reflect the nature of all the crimes that take place. As part of its research the OCC interviewed children and young people whose abusers had generally never been charged. It found what it called a "significant gap" between their experiences and recorded data.

5. That applies equally to details about the victims themselves - there's some reason to suspect that children from minority ethnic backgrounds might be less likely to report abuse than White British children. This was a concern raised in the Rotherham report, which recommended greater engagement with Pakistani communities to help encourage victims to come forward.


Are these the articles, and is this the data, that you are guiding us to? It certainly tells us that there is an over-representation of 'Asian' men in the crime data on this particular aspect of rape but it also gives us a fuller picture of the issue.

I think you (and some others) might be mis-understanding the thrust of what Brassnat was saying: that gang grooming is one part of the overall huge problem of rape and awful as it is, I don't see why we should focus on one particular aspect of rape and not make any mention or acknowledgement of the others? I am far from saying that we should not be proactive in dealing openly and honestly with the issues Champion raises, but I agree with her that we should not allow the issue to be hijacked by any anti-Muslim agenda that can't distinguish between the criminal minority and the law abiding majority of the Muslim population.

[Grist_To_The_Mill]

Meanwhile, elsewhere...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...ngham-41001169

And this is Birmingham UK not Birmingham Alabama

[ragingpup]

Meanwhile, elsewhere...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...ngham-41001169

And this is Birmingham UK not Birmingham Alabama

Interesting reading about horrible people in Birmingham but how does this relate to a discussion on child abuse other than that 'gangs' are involved? What point are you making (if any!)?

[Grist_To_The_Mill]

Interesting reading about horrible people in Birmingham but how does this relate to a discussion on child abuse other than that 'gangs' are involved? What point are you making (if any!)?

You're grown up enough to work it out (I think)

[monty_rhodes]

Actually 95% of abusers on official records are white male. And even if all of the other 5% were Asian , which they are not, it is not disproportionate

Why isn't Sarah saying that there is a White Male problem here. (Which I am, also christened, by the way! )

This is almost a perfect paraphrase of White Supremacist arguments about killings of black men by white police officers in the USA. They argue that 95% of shootings of black males are black-on-black and THAT is the REAL problem. This is just as idiotic and misguided as Brassgnat's facile nonsense in this case.

[ragingpup]

ragingpup thank you for the stats, but they only back up my post.

A couple of points:

1. 50% of grooming gangs were ALL asian. Thats something to be proud of.

2. A caveat on the stats given was that " children from minority ethnic backgrounds might be less likely to report abuse " so the TRUE figure could be much much larger.

Who's going to try spinning this one, you or brass ?

Not really interested in spinning the facts that we do have, Slim. More interested in trying to find actual facts and trying to question people peddling non facts.

1. Being 'proud' of 'only' or as many as 50% doesn't come into it. As I said, Asian people are over represented in that figure. But clearly, some people think that the % is actually higher, and seem to be putting over that its exclusively an Asian/Muslim activity. This clearly, from independent studies of the crime stats isn't the case. But it's still indicating a significant problem within that community that needs honest discussion, which Champion tried (hamfistedly) to initiate. Did you also note that both independent studies placed the gang grooming issue within the context of rape as a whole. Fullfact went onto to note the other form (type 1 was it) which consisted of groups preying on children securely but with long standing ***ual interests in children (as opposed to the type 2 discussed above). They found that in this type of organised abuse, the criminals were 100% white male. It's not a case of being 'proud', or 'ashamed' of these facts, they are the closest we have to facts on the issue.

2) I think the point of children from ethnic backgrounds being less likely to report abuse was more aimed at questioning that groups of ethnic males were targeting white only girls,not suggesting (as you say) that it could mean more Asian rapists. Sorry but your interpretation here sounds more like spin than anything I could attempt! I'm fact, Sarah Wilson, who has more right to be bitter about these criminals has stressed that it is not an 'Asian only' issue.

I stress persistently that I agree that is an issue that needs action, but action from a factual basis and free from generalising or scape goating.

[Slimchance]

Not really interested in spinning the facts that we do have, Slim. More interested in trying to find actual facts and trying to question people peddling non facts.

1. Being 'proud' of 'only' or as many as 50% doesn't come into it. As I said, Asian people are over represented in that figure. But clearly, some people think that the % is actually higher, and seem to be putting over that its exclusively an Asian/Muslim activity. This clearly, from independent studies of the crime stats isn't the case. But it's still indicating a significant problem within that community that needs honest discussion, which Champion tried (hamfistedly) to initiate. Did you also note that both independent studies placed the gang grooming issue within the context of rape as a whole. Fullfact went onto to note the other form (type 1 was it) which consisted of groups preying on children securely but with long standing ***ual interests in children (as opposed to the type 2 discussed above). They found that in this type of organised abuse, the criminals were 100% white male. It's not a case of being 'proud', or 'ashamed' of these facts, they are the closest we have to facts on the issue.

2) I think the point of children from ethnic backgrounds being less likely to report abuse was more aimed at questioning that groups of ethnic males were targeting white only girls,not suggesting (as you say) that it could mean more Asian rapists. Sorry but your interpretation here sounds more like spin than anything I could attempt! I'm fact, Sarah Wilson, who has more right to be bitter about these criminals has stressed that it is not an 'Asian only' issue.

I stress persistently that I agree that is an issue that needs action, but action from a factual basis and free from generalising or scape goating.

Try contacting Mr Trump he requires a good PR person

[ragingpup]

Try contacting Mr Trump he requires a good PR person

Low blow! Ow!