OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[swaledale]

Have we not been talking about ‘economic migrants’ since about 5.23 this evening then?
As regards ‘Aid’...which bit of ‘properly targeted’ did you not understand?

Perhpas if western powers hadn't gone beyond removing the terrorists and got the **** out of Afghanistan, rather than cocking up the nation building attempt - always being aware that trying to build a totally different country and culture is a wee bit arrogant and stupid anyway, we wouldn't have this **** show?

I mean we went in with the Americans and ****ed up Iraq on false pretences, yet are happy to trade and have friendly relations or at least ignore other nations with equally abhorrent attitudes to human rights.

But as I said - if the increase in population in the UK was due to a booming birth rate of residents no one would be claiming lack of space, housing, health services or access to jobs.

Thats says it all as to the nature of those who try to appear they have reasonable concerns whilst in truth being purely xenophobic and racist.

[Andy_Faber]

Perhpas if western powers hadn't gone beyond removing the terrorists and got the **** out of Afghanistan, rather than cocking up the nation building attempt - always being aware that trying to build a totally different country and culture is a wee bit arrogant and stupid anyway, we wouldn't ahve this **** show?

For once I think we agree, arrogance sums up getting involved in the first place, I'd add that naive is a good word for any expectation that the Taliban would remotely keep their word in any negotiations.

[Andy_Faber]

But as I said - if the increase in population in the UK was due to a booming birth rate of residents no one would be claiming lack of space, housing, health services or access to jobs.

Thats says it all as to the nature of those who try to appear they have reasonable concerns whilst in truth being purely xenophobic and racist.

such as who?

[ramAnag]

For once I think we agree, arrogance sums up getting involved in the first place, I'd add that naive is a good word for any expectation that the Taliban would remotely keep their word in any negotiations.

Agreed...unfortunately they’re hardly alone amongst ‘politicians’ across the world in that last respect.

[Trickytreesreds]

Agreed...unfortunately they’re hardly alone amongst ‘politicians’ across the world in that last respect.

On that note, enter TONY BLAIR, the epitomy of arrogance, who lied us into these things.
Still at it.

https://news.sky.com/story/afghanist...owers-12387017

[Trickytreesreds]

such as who?

He will never say it out loud, his spine is on par with a jelly fish

[ramAnag]

On that note, enter TONY BLAIR, the epitomy of arrogance, who lied us into these things.
Still at it.

https://news.sky.com/story/afghanist...owers-12387017

Did Blair lie over Afghanistan, Tricky? He may well have over Iraq...or he may have been mistaken...but Afghanistan was different.
We/he became involved in Afghanistan in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 as a show of support for the ‘special relationship’ with our USA allies.
Whether that was misguided or not is for history to decide. Certainly those involved should have recognised that, no matter who the superpower, no one in recent history has exited Afghanistan ‘in credit’.
No more point in blaming Blair for the unique situation of 2001 than there is in blaming Johnson for the ongoing crisis imo. The immediate situation may be being handled very badly - and there blame may be attributed - but the ultimate outcome cannot for once, imo, be laid at Johnson’s door.
You criticise Blair and Biden, again because it suits your agenda, but out of interest...what would you have done? I may perhaps define it differently from you, and I loathe all forms of terrorism, not least the Taliban, but do you not recognise the truth of what Swale said about the arrogant imposition of our cultural values, and do you believe that Biden should have just continued to deploy a stream of young Americans to Afghanistan for a further twenty years? I’ve no idea what the solution is...but he surely has a point.

[Andy_Faber]

Agreed...unfortunately they’re hardly alone amongst ‘politicians’ across the world in that last respect.

It’s not really apolitical point I’m making though it’s a cultural one, and I refer back to my Iraqi friend, who conceded that in (in his case trade) negotiations he would lie, exaggerate and evade even when he didn’t need to, not especially for financial gain but just to ‘have one over’ on the other party. He justified it by saying (I paraphrase) ‘that is our way’. I introduced his business to its current bankers, honest Swedes, and they’ve been driven mad over the years by the subterfuge

[ramAnag]

It’s not really apolitical point I’m making though it’s a cultural one, and I refer back to my Iraqi friend, who conceded that in (in his case trade) negotiations he would lie, exaggerate and evade even when he didn’t need to, not especially for financial gain but just to ‘have one over’ on the other party. He justified it by saying (I paraphrase) ‘that is our way’. I introduced his business to its current bankers, honest Swedes, and they’ve been driven mad over the years by the subterfuge

Cultural? Such as who/which?

[Trickytreesreds]

Did Blair lie over Afghanistan, Tricky? He may well have over Iraq...or he may have been mistaken...but Afghanistan was different.
We/he became involved in Afghanistan in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 as a show of support for the ‘special relationship’ with our USA allies.
Whether that was misguided or not is for history to decide. Certainly those involved should have recognised that, no matter who the superpower, no one in recent history has exited Afghanistan ‘in credit’.
No more point in blaming Blair for the unique situation of 2001 than there is in blaming Johnson for the ongoing crisis imo. The immediate situation may be being handled very badly - and there blame may be attributed - but the ultimate outcome cannot for once, imo, be laid at Johnson’s door.
You criticise Blair and Biden, again because it suits your agenda, but out of interest...what would you have done? I may perhaps define it differently from you, and I loathe all forms of terrorism, not least the Taliban, but do you not recognise the truth of what Swale said about the arrogant imposition of our cultural values, and do you believe that Biden should have just continued to deploy a stream of young Americans to Afghanistan for a further twenty years? I’ve no idea what the solution is...but he surely has a point.

Yes Blair did lie. He thundered in his speeches that invading Afghanistan was that he promised the defeat of jihadism and the promotion of freedom. "This is a battle with only one outcome: our victory, not theirs,"
He relished the war streak in him, in the same way as he did, dragging us into the invasion of Iraq.
Once in, it was harder to come out than it ever was to go in.

Iraq was about ego and political gains, both sides of the Atlantic.
Afghanistan was about revenge for ISIS attacks and to take down the terrorists home base.


Personally, I'd have backed the assault on Bin Ladens forces, but no way was it correct to stay there.
They had to learn, that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. My disdain, is that the back lash didn't stretch to Pakistan and Saudi.

It is also apparent, that the Arab world is absolutely piss poor at policing itself.
Factions within factions, reignited many tribal conflicts stretching back thousands of years. It also why, I am against the willy nilly flooding of Islam throughout Europe.
The trouble it has caused is there for all to see. Germany/France/Sweden/Belgium/Denmark.
It is ok talking about saving those "POOR REFUGEES", but the problems come with them as well.

Going in, gave us a responsibilty to stabilise and secure. We have failed and Biden exasperated the failure.

In his defense though, I will say this. I have read many stories of British combat vets, talking about training the Afghan army. Chocolate fireguard and the backbone of a jelly fish got mentioned.
If these people won't help themselves, what the hell did they think was going to happen?
Remember the Iraqi army surrendering in droves to drones etc?

same thing.
They outnumbered the Taliban by 4:1 yest folded like a pack of cards.
Now we are supposed to support a max exodus?

Sorry but Biden shouldn't have advertised a complete withdrawal like that.
His senility creeped out again.