Can anyone say if

[islaydarkblue]

Islay, I think the GERS figures are a bone of contention. I don't think any argument can be won using them. The central argument of the SNP is that Scotland sends more money to Westminster than it gets back. Surely this is a simple calculation.

Politicians are not capable of telling the truth so you can be sure that the SNP controlled Scottish Government will get their civil servants to fiddle the figures to suit their own agenda.
I know that the SNP controlled Scottish Government are not counting the CO2 emissions figures from one sector of the Scottish economy to make the Scottish Government look better than the rest of the U.K. as I have a copy of an email sent by Michael Mathieson the Scottish Government Net Zero Minster to my MSP in August 2022 confirming this information.
My MSP when she sent her letter to Michael Matheson requesting this information was not aware that I had been investigating the subject since late 2014.

[BCram]

Maybe if the SNP figures were published, public scrutiny could help with the discussion.

[noahrab]

Maybe if the SNP figures were published, public scrutiny could help with the discussion.

If we were self sufficient and could make life better for all in Scotland the SNP would be shouting it from the rooftops daily.

Theirs a reason why they aren’t.

[BCram]

If we were self sufficient and could make life better for all in Scotland the SNP would be shouting it from the rooftops daily.

Theirs a reason why they aren’t.

I think that SNP voters are being fed a line. I am sure that SNP voters think the sceptics like me or unionists are being lied to by their side. Both sides can't be wrong so why isn't it a problem of mathematics rather than dogma?

[islaydarkblue]

I think that SNP voters are being fed a line. I am sure that SNP voters think the sceptics like me or unionists are being lied to by their side. Both sides can't be wrong so why isn't it a problem of mathematics rather than dogma?

They were certainly told a lie by the SNP politicians who produced the Scotland’s Future White Paper which was published in early 2014.
White Paper’s are normally published by the Government stating the new law they are proposing to bring in.
However in the case of the Scotland’s Future White Paper it was an SNP ‘wish list’ to try to con the Scottish electorate into voting in favour of Scotland becoming an independent country.

[Deeranged]

I am sorry to disagree Deeranged but nobody has given even the slightest evidence that the claim that Scotland gets back a lot less than it pays onto the system is true. Nobody has refuted that Scots get back substantial amounts via pensions and benefits which is the whole point of this thread.
I think that the claim that Scots pay more tax to Westminster than they get back in direct grant, pensions and welfare benefits is a wrong.
If I am wrong then I will happily admit it but someone needs to provide the figures.

It is a key point. As those who want independence seem to believe that our tax donations to Westminster are greater than we get back.

Sorry, just picking up on this response now.

I agree there is no hard evidence that Scotland gives more than it gets. By the same token there's no hard evidence to suggest the contrary. Both sides are guilty of smoke and mirrors and manipulation of data to some extent. I refer you to the tide of UK political leaders coming north just before the referendum when the polls started to show in favour of yes and declaring how much worse off we'd be but with no hard evidence of such - just empty promises and lies. They tried everything and the gullible believed it - 'better together as part of the EU' was a belter as was the 'you won't get Coronation Street in an independent Scotland'. I watched Coronation Street when I lived in Germany between 1986 and 1989 FFS.

I'd really love to know what's so great about the union. The last person I asked could only say 'it's always been that way' which just isn't the case of course. For me fear of change is massive in the minds of unionists, they see themselves as happy as is but fear the possibility it could worsen whilst rejecting any concept that things might improve. Some of those same people would likely stick £50 on Dundee to beat Partick so do understand the concept of risk and reward.

FEAR, the tool used by UK governments since before the union began.

[The AuldYin]

Sorry, just picking up on this response now.

I agree there is no hard evidence that Scotland gives more than it gets. By the same token there's no hard evidence to suggest the contrary. Both sides are guilty of smoke and mirrors and manipulation of data to some extent. I refer you to the tide of UK political leaders coming north just before the referendum when the polls started to show in favour of yes and declaring how much worse off we'd be but with no hard evidence of such - just empty promises and lies. They tried everything and the gullible believed it - 'better together as part of the EU' was a belter as was the 'you won't get Coronation Street in an independent Scotland'. I watched Coronation Street when I lived in Germany between 1986 and 1989 FFS.

I'd really love to know what's so great about the union. The last person I asked could only say 'it's always been that way' which just isn't the case of course. For me fear of change is massive in the minds of unionists, they see themselves as happy as is but fear the possibility it could worsen whilst rejecting any concept that things might improve. Some of those same people would likely stick £50 on Dundee to beat Partick so do understand the concept of risk and reward.

FEAR, the tool used by UK governments since before the union began.

And democracy of course.

[BCram]

Sorry, just picking up on this response now.

I agree there is no hard evidence that Scotland gives more than it gets. By the same token there's no hard evidence to suggest the contrary. Both sides are guilty of smoke and mirrors and manipulation of data to some extent. I refer you to the tide of UK political leaders coming north just before the referendum when the polls started to show in favour of yes and declaring how much worse off we'd be but with no hard evidence of such - just empty promises and lies. They tried everything and the gullible believed it - 'better together as part of the EU' was a belter as was the 'you won't get Coronation Street in an independent Scotland'. I watched Coronation Street when I lived in Germany between 1986 and 1989 FFS.

I'd really love to know what's so great about the union. The last person I asked could only say 'it's always been that way' which just isn't the case of course. For me fear of change is massive in the minds of unionists, they see themselves as happy as is but fear the possibility it could worsen whilst rejecting any concept that things might improve. Some of those same people would likely stick £50 on Dundee to beat Partick so do understand the concept of risk and reward.

FEAR, the tool used by UK governments since before the union began.

I think you are spot on when you say fear is a major consideration. I think that pensions, social security payments and health service costs are the main worry for many people. What if the SNP are completely wrong in their belief that Scotland would be better as an independent country? I think that they can't put forward a statement of the financial status of Scotland because they know that Scotland cannot support the civil state that we have.

[Deeranged]

I think you are spot on when you say fear is a major consideration. I think that pensions, social security payments and health service costs are the main worry for many people. What if the SNP are completely wrong in their belief that Scotland would be better as an independent country? I think that they can't put forward a statement of the financial status of Scotland because they know that Scotland cannot support the civil state that we have.

What if they're completely correct?

[noahrab]

What if they're completely correct?

The GERS figures tell a different story.