O/T. The Government's handling of Covid

[swaledale]

Fair comment Ram. I’m genuinely sorry about your mate but I’m actually not being in any way complacent.

My life, imo, in the current circumstances has fewer risks than the average teacher, hospital worker, shop worker etc.

I kind of agree with you about ‘a few more weeks lost education’ however it’s not just that. There’s a huge economic implication of the child minding service provided by schools being shut that is perhaps only now being recognised.
That is actually the genuine driving force behind schools being opened asap. I don’t want the cost of that to be sick and dying teachers.

To be honest rA looking at the facts, opening up schools is not an issue because of sick and dying teachers, otherwise they would close down everything because anyone who comes into contact with other people is at risk, shop workers, transport workers medical staff, care workers, police and so and so forth.

Schools are closed because of their established role in children being infection spreaders, if that were not the case they would be open. The research shows that teachers do not have a greater risk of catching Covid-19 in the main and lets face it, they are able to deal with the same set of people day in day out in socially distanced circumstances, the other groups I've mentioned come face to face with hundreds of different people from different parts of the country daily a much greater risk and social distancing isn't always possible.

The only reason care workers are early on in the process is because they tend to deal with older or more vulnerable people.

Its a good strategy to vaccinate those most at risk of dying or being incapacitated by Covid as that will reduce hospital admissions and deaths. vaccinating teachers won't do that nor will it stop schoolchildren from being transmitters of the infection .

[ramAnag]

To be honest rA looking at the facts, opening up schools is not an issue because of sick and dying teachers, otherwise they would close down everything because anyone who comes into contact with other people is at risk, shop workers, transport workers medical staff, care workers, police and so and so forth.

Schools are closed because of their established role in children being infection spreaders, if that were not the case they would be open. The research shows that teachers do not have a greater risk of catching Covid-19 in the main and lets face it, they are able to deal with the same set of people day in day out in socially distanced circumstances, the other groups I've mentioned come face to face with hundreds of different people from different parts of the country daily a much greater risk and social distancing isn't always possible.

The only reason care workers are early on in the process is because they tend to deal with older or more vulnerable people.

Its a good strategy to vaccinate those most at risk of dying or being incapacitated by Covid as that will reduce hospital admissions and deaths. vaccinating teachers won't do that nor will it stop schoolchildren from being transmitters of the infection .

I think the point is, Swale, that we don’t know the school based risks since the new variant(s) came into play.

Schools were largely open between September and Christmas and that doubtless contributed significantly to the situation which raised its head immediately before Christmas.

Then the government belatedly acknowledged the presence of at least one of what I believe to be several new variants. We were told by Johnson and Hancock that the new ‘British’ variant was much more transmissible and possibly more dangerous to children, although I accept that there seems to have been some backtracking from that second claim.

Since then schools have been operating a much reduced service, remaining open for the ‘vulnerable’ and the children of ‘critical/key’ workers.

Now there is pressure to return to normal from March 8th. I actually don’t blame the PM for that...we all know where such pressure comes from but, possibly cabin crew apart, I’m struggling to think of another group of workers who are likely to have to spend over six hours confined in a small closed classroom sized environment in the company of thirty other individuals.

With that in mind...if society wants teachers to return to fully providing the education/child minding service that society depends on then two things need to happen imo...an effective testing process needs to be in place and teachers need to be vaccinated.

I know I’m banging on about schools - it’s an area I know and care about - and I’m sure teachers are not alone...but for all those who doubt, consider this...we can’t fly, go to the pub, enjoy a meal out, go to a football match, visit the cinema/theatre while most who normally work in offices are working from home and the chamber of the House of Commons is always conspicuously empty...and yet we expect teachers (and certain others) to carry on regardless.

Can’t help wondering how comfortable you and any other doubters would feel today if told you had to spend the next six plus hours in a small room with thirty other people.

[Ram59]

I think the point is, Swale, that we don’t know the school based risks since the new variant(s) came into play.

Schools were largely open between September and Christmas and that doubtless contributed significantly to the situation which raised its head immediately before Christmas.

Then the government belatedly acknowledged the presence of at least one of what I believe to be several new variants. We were told by Johnson and Hancock that the new ‘British’ variant was much more transmissible and possibly more dangerous to children, although I accept that there seems to have been some backtracking from that second claim.

Since then schools have been operating a much reduced service, remaining open for the ‘vulnerable’ and the children of ‘critical/key’ workers.

Now there is pressure to return to normal from March 8th. I actually don’t blame the PM for that...we all know where such pressure comes from but, possibly cabin crew apart, I’m struggling to think of another group of workers who are likely to have to spend over six hours confined in a small closed classroom sized environment in the company of thirty other individuals.

With that in mind...if society wants teachers to return to fully providing the education/child minding service that society depends on then two things need to happen imo...an effective testing process needs to be in place and teachers need to be vaccinated.

I know I’m banging on about schools - it’s an area I know and care about - and I’m sure teachers are not alone...but for all those who doubt, consider this...we can’t fly, go to the pub, enjoy a meal out, go to a football match, visit the cinema/theatre while most who normally work in offices are working from home and the chamber of the House of Commons is always conspicuously empty...and yet we expect teachers (and certain others) to carry on regardless.

Can’t help wondering how comfortable you and any other doubters would feel today if told you had to spend the next six plus hours in a small room with thirty other people.

Personally, I would be prepared to work under the same conditions as a teacher, far more so than as a firefighter or refuse collector in a crowded cab, or police officer or cab driver sharing his car with some lowlife, or my daughter-in-law working in the prison service. Then you have the high risk occupations like security guards that could be included.

The question is where do you stop and at what stage should these people be vaccinated, the current plea is for teachers to be put ahead of over 65s and vulnerable 16-64s, which I totally disagree with.

[MadAmster]

So, looking at the "to teach or not to teach" situation we have a few things to address.

By not teaching we get
Mental health issues for children.
Children missing out on education.
Children missing out on social and emotional growth.
Children subjected to physical and seksual abuse at home.
Parents unable to work which is not good for the economy.

By teaching we get
A vast reduction in mental health issues for children.
Children not missing out on education.
Children not missing out on social and emotional growth.
Children not subjected to physical and seksual abuse at home.
Parents able to work which is good for the economy.

The above shows the (dis-) advantages of kids being in school. A knock on effect of them going back to school would be parents feeling less inadequate because they no longer have to "teach" their kids things they don't always understand themselves.

Another thing that is bad for kids is the opening and then closing again of schools or individual classes being sent home because the teacher is ill.

What those in power need to do is to decide what the priority for the kids is and then take the necessary decisions for their, and the country's, future prosperity.

My opinion is that safeguarding teachers through vaccination will enable the reopening of schools and that will have beneficial effects on the mental health of the kids, the mental health of the parents, the economy in the short term as the parents can work and the economy in the long term as it will give kids the chance to catch up somewhat on what they've missed thus far (many won't ever get back to where they would have been without the closing of schools, if any) or, at worst, not fall further behind than they already are.

Weighing up the pros and cons, it does seem to make sense to vaccinate teachers to the benefit of very many others as well as that of the country.

I'd like to suggest another group for priority vaccination. Overweight (BMI of over 25) males in the age range 60 to 75. It seems they make up the majority of patients in the ICU. A Dutch ICU specialist has said that vaccinating that group would see 90% less Covid patients needing ICU treatment. If the aim is to reduce the stress on hospitals in general and ICUs in particlular then this would appear to be a genuine priority group.

[ramAnag]

The first paragraph isn’t really relevant. I’ve always said I’m talking about teachers because schools are something I understand and have a knowledge of. You’re making it into some sort of competition and I’ve always used the phrase...‘teachers amongst others’.

As far as the second paragraph is concerned...we’ll just have to agree to respectfully differ.

[swaledale]

The first paragraph isn’t really relevant. I’ve always said I’m talking about teachers because schools are something I understand and have a knowledge of. You’re making it into some sort of competition and I’ve always used the phrase...‘teachers amongst others’.

As far as the second paragraph is concerned...we’ll just have to agree to respectfully differ.

rA the new variant doesn't change the overall risk for Teachers in comparison to other workers though, yes it raises the overall risk due it being more infectious, but that applies to everybody, so if we close schools due to the risk to teachers then everything else should be shut.

[ramAnag]

rA the new variant doesn't change the overall risk for Teachers in comparison to other workers though, yes it raises the overall risk due it being more infectious, but that applies to everybody, so if we close schools due to the risk to teachers then everything else should be shut.

At the risk of repeating myself. I recognise that teachers aren’t the only people at risk...but they are, generally speaking in the current circumstances, the ones confined to a room with around thirty other individuals for in excess of six hours a day.

Schools are also the places that people are making the most fuss over being shut down. My view is that if society wants them fully reopened asap they need to protect those that work there asap.

Those are my thoughts on the subject...I can’t say it any other way and I recognise I’m clearly in the minority, but I can live with that.

[swaledale]

At the risk of repeating myself. I recognise that teachers aren’t the only people at risk...but they are, generally speaking in the current circumstances, the ones confined to a room with around thirty other individuals for in excess of six hours a day.

Schools are also the places that people are making the most fuss over being shut down. My view is that if society wants them fully reopened asap they need to protect those that work there asap.

Those are my thoughts on the subject...I can’t say it any other way and I recognise I’m clearly in the minority, but I can live with that.

Well I guess if they shut down all food shops, all public transport, taxi's, hospitals GP surgery's etc. then people would slightly more aggrieved than they are over school closures.

Thats where your logic falls down a little, all the workers in those occupations have daily close contact with hundreds of a people a day from almost anywhere. Plus the risk assessment and stats to date show teachers at greater risk than those workers.

So a strategy of vaccinating those most at risk and working through them is to me entirely logical, and in order of risk one would do medical staff, transport staff, shop workers, police, before teaches, that being the case its going to take time before they get to teachers.

because by the same logic your using if society wants to be able to shop for food, visit hospital travel by public transport, then the workers in those occupations should be vaccinated first.

That covers a fair few people, which cohort would you suggest stand back and allow teachers to be vaccinated first and why?

[ramAnag]

Well I guess if they shut down all food shops, all public transport, taxi's, hospitals GP surgery's etc. then people would slightly more aggrieved than they are over school closures.

Thats where your logic falls down a little, all the workers in those occupations have daily close contact with hundreds of a people a day from almost anywhere. Plus the risk assessment and stats to date show teachers at greater risk than those workers.

So a strategy of vaccinating those most at risk and working through them is to me entirely logical, and in order of risk one would do medical staff, transport staff, shop workers, police, before teaches, that being the case its going to take time before they get to teachers.

because by the same logic your using if society wants to be able to shop for food, visit hospital travel by public transport, then the workers in those occupations should be vaccinated first.

That covers a fair few people, which cohort would you suggest stand back and allow teachers to be vaccinated first and why?

I haven’t at any time suggested anyone should ‘stand back and allow teachers to be vaccinated first’.

I completely agree that those such as shop workers, hospital workers and transport workers are equally deserving and I’ve both made and acknowledged that point myself.

This part of the debate however is about the possibility of reopening schools by March 8th. It is my opinion that, for that to happen, teachers need to be in the forefront of the vaccination process.

Doubtless we can all make a case for a ‘preferred’ occupation to go to the front of the queue. I’m not actually engaging in a competition, simply making the point that very few have to actually share the same air as thirty(ish) others, in a confined environment, for an extended period of time in the way that teachers do.

You don’t agree...that’s fine too.

[Ram59]

The first paragraph isn’t really relevant. I’ve always said I’m talking about teachers because schools are something I understand and have a knowledge of. You’re making it into some sort of competition and I’ve always used the phrase...‘teachers amongst others’.

As far as the second paragraph is concerned...we’ll just have to agree to respectfully differ.

With respect RA, the first paragraph was answering your question about whether people would be prepared to be in a classroom, which is generally not small, with 30 other people, meaning children. I then went on to list a number of incidences that I thought were more risky and which I wouldn't be prepared to do.

You agree to differ on the second paragraph, but when I suggested the other day that you would put teachers in front of vulnerable over 60s, you denied it. Vulnerable over 60s make up part of the vulnerable 16-64s group, if you're confused.

I think that we all know how you feel about teachers and maybe you should put the teacher issue to bed, you've even got me agreeing with Swale on the matter and that's made me feel quite ill. lol