Does The West Just Watch The Massacre?

[baggieal]

Should we just all watch whilst everyone is massacred and Ukraine reduced to rubble? I would rather take them on despite the nuclear threats. How many want to see this? How many want to live in a World like this? What is this doing to our children seeing this after two years of Covid?

US Secretary of State Antony Blinken has said Russian troops are destroying "critical infrastructure" in Ukraine.
"These aren't military targets," he said during a televised address following a call with Ukraine's foreign minister.
He added that "hundreds if not thousands" of Ukrainian civilians have been killed and wounded and there are now more than 174,000 refugees who have sought safety in neighbouring countries.

[mickd1961]

If Putin sets foot in Poland it’s game over for all of us.

It’s going to be buttons getting pressed at that point.

[baggieal]

If Putin sets foot in Poland it’s game over for all of us.

It’s going to be buttons getting pressed at that point.

So sad that a 69 nine year old who probably has on average 20 more years to live has the capability to blow up the world.

Putin and Biden should retire gracefully. So
F uckin wrong people of this age can run a super power!!

Would a 70 year old be fussed about pressing a nuclear button when they have had their life?

[Dubbag]

So sad that a 69 nine year old who probably has on average 20 more years to live has the capability to blow up the world.

Putin and Biden should retire gracefully. So
F uckin wrong people of this age can run a super power!! Without being bitter - they have had their lives so should step aside for young with it dynamic individuals from the younger generation.

Would a 70 year old be fussed about pressing a nuclear button when they have had their life?

World wide system change is whats needed now.....Lets go full WW3.so that my hamster and his like can truly take over and rule in peace.....

[bordering]

World wide system change is whats needed now.....Lets go full WW3.so that my hamster and his like can truly take over and rule in peace.....

Thread seems full of posturing and gung ho war fever

Let's get real we have about 72000 in the Army that's from the pay corps , logistics , the number of front line troops is a lot less can't find their number can you? so our on the ground contribution is small. Our airforce can fly missions & bomb Russian troops in Ukraine but in Russia? that's world war 3

Our economic sanctions nowhere near comprehensive and are ineffective

At the UN 4 countries voted with Russia & 35 abstained on the posturing motion of condemning Russia

Russia is used to sanctions & now holds the whip hand in gas supplies to Europe. It has set up a huge deal with China for gas so Europe's reactions & green policies are driving its population into fuel poverty.

NATO posturing and the build up of biological weapons- [why does Ukraine need them?] that threaten Russia are major reasons for Russian action.


Russia has always wanted buffer states to protect its western borders...


The real politik is that this is a boots on the ground war - no one wants serious escalation,

My solution? Ukraine's independence is guaranteed by UN & NATO & Russia , it becomes a de- militarised neutral state & the real issue the massive untapped resources of Ukraine are for another discussion

Or we can have gung-ho posturing- it might make you feel good it might destroy us all

[Barrera]

The real problem is though that thousands of innocent people are being murdered every day by a barbaric military regime .... and we are just watching it all unfold... whilst imposing sanctions. This does not sit well with me ....

[Omegstrat6]

Thread seems full of posturing and gung ho war fever

Let's get real we have about 72000 in the Army that's from the pay corps , logistics , the number of front line troops is a lot less can't find their number can you? so our on the ground contribution is small. Our airforce can fly missions & bomb Russian troops in Ukraine but in Russia? that's world war 3

Our economic sanctions nowhere near comprehensive and are ineffective

At the UN 4 countries voted with Russia & 35 abstained on the posturing motion of condemning Russia

Russia is used to sanctions & now holds the whip hand in gas supplies to Europe. It has set up a huge deal with China for gas so Europe's reactions & green policies are driving its population into fuel poverty.

NATO posturing and the build up of biological weapons- [why does Ukraine need them?] that threaten Russia are major reasons for Russian action.


Russia has always wanted buffer states to protect its western borders...


The real politik is that this is a boots on the ground war - no one wants serious escalation,

My solution? Ukraine's independence is guaranteed by UN & NATO & Russia , it becomes a de- militarised neutral state & the real issue the massive untapped resources of Ukraine are for another discussion

Or we can have gung-ho posturing- it might make you feel good it might destroy us all

Can certainly understand why the West do not want to engage Russian forces directly and risk a NATO v Russia war and, obviously, Ukraine is not a NATO member and so they have no treaty to expect NATO to do so. That said, I do think that history may not be too kind to the West if it allows Russia to effectively destroy Ukraine.

There is undoubtedly an element of gung-ho from some quarters regarding the West' s current stance but I disagree that those who might support direct military action are all doing so from purely gung ho reasons. What Putin is doing is clearly wrong both morally and legally and at some point someone has to stand up to his brinkmanship because he will not be content with Ukraine if he succeeds there and he poses a far wider threat.

In 1939, Britain was certainly not equipped from a military perspective to fight a war with Germany but Hitler's invasion of Poland led to a declaration of war after the well meaning policy of appeasement failed. Granted, Britain had a treaty with Poland then as NATO does not now with Ukraine, but would you say Britain was wrong to declare war on Nazi Germany then?

You are dead right about the military strength of the UK being measley in comparison to Russia and many European countries have drastically cut back on military expenditure since the end of the Cold War but America has not. NATO is pretty toothless without US support but with it NATO is still a very formidable force and certainly one that the Kremlin (if not Putin) would be very wary of. Surely both sides would be acutely aware of the consequences of such a war and the scale of deaths and destruction it would entail and would therefore wish to avoid one. This is also not about NATO aggression towards Russia itself, it is about defending the sovereignty of Ukraine against Putin's unwarranted "special military operation". In these circumstances the gamble would be that threat of such an escalation might lead to the Kremlin agreeing to withdraw from Ukraine. Doubtless any agreement would prohibit Ukraine joining NATO but the aim would be for Russia to withdraw and Ukraine to be guaranteed its sovereignty even if it lost some of its territories in Luhansk and Donetsk to Russia.

Putin has spun the line that he had acted partly because NATO has threatened Russia by allowing more Easterly countries to join since 1997. It is true that Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria have all joined for example, alongside Croatia and Slovenia but Putin is just angered because these are all ex Communist Bloc countries and some of them used to be part of the USSR and he wants them back. They undoubtedly wanted to join NATO because they wanted to protect their recent independence and did so for defensive purposes not because they wanted to attack Russia.

As Ukraine is not a NATO member article 5 cannot be triggered and so I cannot see Biden or other key NATO country leaders agreeing to implement a no fly zone or anything that might lead to putting NATO at war with Russia. There may be very good reasons for this but as Putin ramps up his attacks on Ukraine it clearly does not sit well with an increasing number of people that the West does not to do more to prevent it. War should always be avoided if possible but surely sometimes you have to fight for what is right once all other options have been exhausted.

[kettering_baggie]

The real problem is though that thousands of innocent people are being murdered every day by a barbaric military regime .... and we are just watching it all unfold... whilst imposing sanctions. This does not sit well with me ....

It is an extremely unhappy situation but it would seem that the Russian murderer is unhinged and therefore capable of launching WW3 if directly attacked by NATO. We would then be in a scenario where, potentially, many millions of people would die in a nuclear conflagration. The least worst option is to closely monitor the current position, isolate Russia in every area possible and hope that unrest in that country will grow to such an extent that he is deposed (and hopefully killed). Wishful thinking? Maybe, but has to be better than risking a nuclear war.

[billsbest]

One of the interesting facts to come out of the Russian invasion is how poor their soldiers are performing. They appear to be young, badly trained, with poor morale and terrible leadership. The Russians also seem to have no idea of logistics. If our troops were in Ukraine we would have destroyed that large column of tanks etc that has become bogged down north of Kyiv. The reality seems completely at odds with the image the Kremlin tries to project of Russian power.

[Yarmbaggie]

One of the interesting facts to come out of the Russian invasion is how poor their soldiers are performing. They appear to be young, badly trained, with poor morale and terrible leadership. The Russians also seem to have no idea of logistics. If our troops were in Ukraine we would have destroyed that large column of tanks etc that has become bogged down north of Kyiv. The reality seems completely at odds with the image the Kremlin tries to project of Russian power.

It was the same with East Germany when the wall came down.

I stayed with at the house of a German guy on a business trip after the wall came down and he said he just couldn’t believe how bad the workers, machinery etc were in the Eastern part of the country. The staff had no motivation, we’re totally work shy and the end product was rubbish, so much so that despite the parts they were getting being dirt cheap they were so bad they couldn’t be relied upon.

Their impression had been that the East German companies were well run, efficient and the truth could not have been further away.

The Russia people have been treated so badly for so long, no wonder they are hardly rushing to jump through hoops for Putin and his billionaire cronies. Fear is very powerful as a motivator but it only goes so far, especially when you are asked to do things you instinctively know are not the right thing to do.