O/T Benefits changes

[Omegstrat6]

The benefits system has badly needed changing for many years and the forecasted cost increase if nothing was done is certainly unsustainable so Labour IMHO have been right to address it. The moot question is whether the decisions taken will prove to be the right ones and whether some genuinely deserving cases are not now forced into the "poverty" bracket.

The data shows that the PIP disability payment is the one area which needs tightening up on most and my personal experiences of the system make me in full agreement. There are far too few assessors and, of these, far too many do not have the relevant knowledge/ experience with the result that far too many genuine people do not get the help they need whilst at the same time far too many are able to blag the system.

I do have concerns though. Attendance Allowance, for example, has recently been tightened up so that one of the criteria is that individuals must need several visits per day for personal care. Mobility within the home, the ability to dress, prepare food and other household chores such as cleaning or bed changing are no longer included. Attendance Allowance (which sort of replaces PIP at pension age and is about £70/week) was previously designed to help enable older people with health/disability issues to remain in their own homes but the narrowing of criteria threatens this especially, of course, for those not wealthy enough to pay for private care providers.

The data also clearly shows that the biggest driver in the increase in benefits payments post pandemic has been "minor mental health" issues amongst younger (16-24) people especially who, as a consequence, are not in work, training or education. As I've said before, in an earlier thread, I do believe that the issues these youngsters face are genuine but that they have been largely caused by failings in parenting and changes in society which have meant that they have not been given the life skills to cope that many of our own generation had at their age.

Labour talk about getting them back into work but it's going to be a lot harder than that. We have some very good young employees at work with good work ethics and attitude who want to get on but the vast majority are poor-they don't have a good work ethic, they don't want to work certain hours, don't want to do certain jobs, don't like being challenged on performance and frequently end up taking days off sick before eventually leaving and sometimes claim the reason is a "toxic workplace" where "too much is expected of them" and it causes them too much "stress" and "impacts on their mental health" . I may run the risk of sounding like an old Boomer calling them snowflakes but, trust me, many younger colleagues of the generation before them say just the same!

These people clearly can't cope in the workplace but then they can go home and live with mum and dad who probably don't charge them much- if anything- for continuing to live at home. Tellingly, those others of their age who do work well all seem to also be living in their own places even if they are paying through the nose for shared rented accommodation. How the government can get such individuals into work is going to be more complex than they may think.

Personally, I lay a lot of the blame on both today's culture (the expectation of having things we want and having them now/ sense of over-entitlement) and poor parenting skills. FFS, I get that being stuck at home with the kids and partner during the pandemic may not have been easy but with most being on furlough they didn't have too many money worries so why didn't so many of them actually spend more time helping their older kids to do school work or engage with their younger ones more? Why is it that just after a period of lockdown when young children spent far more time with their parents than they would ever normally do, that children entering primary schools had a higher level of speech and language issues and of those not toilet trained than ever before? Worryingly, the trend still continues.

With so many people of working age not actually working and with a whopping fifth of our workforce now foreign born, there is clearly a malaise in this country but as my gut feeling is that this has been predominantly caused by a shift in a whole range of societal mores, getting "Britain working" is going to be more complex than carrot/stick Benefit reforms alone-though it may be a start.

[boingy]

The benefits system has badly needed changing for many years and the forecasted cost increase if nothing was done is certainly unsustainable so Labour IMHO have been right to address it. The moot question is whether the decisions taken will prove to be the right ones and whether some genuinely deserving cases are not now forced into the "poverty" bracket.

The data shows that the PIP disability payment is the one area which needs tightening up on most and my personal experiences of the system make me in full agreement. There are far too few assessors and, of these, far too many do not have the relevant knowledge/ experience with the result that far too many genuine people do not get the help they need whilst at the same time far too many are able to blag the system.

I do have concerns though. Attendance Allowance, for example, has recently been tightened up so that one of the criteria is that individuals must need several visits per day for personal care. Mobility within the home, the ability to dress, prepare food and other household chores such as cleaning or bed changing are no longer included. Attendance Allowance (which sort of replaces PIP at pension age and is about £70/week) was previously designed to help enable older people with health/disability issues to remain in their own homes but the narrowing of criteria threatens this especially, of course, for those not wealthy enough to pay for private care providers.

The data also clearly shows that the biggest driver in the increase in benefits payments post pandemic has been "minor mental health" issues amongst younger (16-24) people especially who, as a consequence, are not in work, training or education. As I've said before, in an earlier thread, I do believe that the issues these youngsters face are genuine but that they have been largely caused by failings in parenting and changes in society which have meant that they have not been given the life skills to cope that many of our own generation had at their age.

Labour talk about getting them back into work but it's going to be a lot harder than that. We have some very good young employees at work with good work ethics and attitude who want to get on but the vast majority are poor-they don't have a good work ethic, they don't want to work certain hours, don't want to do certain jobs, don't like being challenged on performance and frequently end up taking days off sick before eventually leaving and sometimes claim the reason is a "toxic workplace" where "too much is expected of them" and it causes them too much "stress" and "impacts on their mental health" . I may run the risk of sounding like an old Boomer calling them snowflakes but, trust me, many younger colleagues of the generation before them say just the same!

These people clearly can't cope in the workplace but then they can go home and live with mum and dad who probably don't charge them much- if anything- for continuing to live at home. Tellingly, those others of their age who do work well all seem to also be living in their own places even if they are paying through the nose for shared rented accommodation. How the government can get such individuals into work is going to be more complex than they may think.

Personally, I lay a lot of the blame on both today's culture (the expectation of having things we want and having them now/ sense of over-entitlement) and poor parenting skills. FFS, I get that being stuck at home with the kids and partner during the pandemic may not have been easy but with most being on furlough they didn't have too many money worries so why didn't so many of them actually spend more time helping their older kids to do school work or engage with their younger ones more? Why is it that just after a period of lockdown when young children spent far more time with their parents than they would ever normally do, that children entering primary schools had a higher level of speech and language issues and of those not toilet trained than ever before? Worryingly, the trend still continues.

With so many people of working age not actually working and with a whopping fifth of our workforce now foreign born, there is clearly a malaise in this country but as my gut feeling is that this has been predominantly caused by a shift in a whole range of societal mores, getting "Britain working" is going to be more complex than carrot/stick Benefit reforms alone-though it may be a start.

Everything is always more complex. I just hope the vulnerable ones get the help they need. I know with my issues a form with just 5 questions is too much for me. I get angry because when there’s a lot going on in your head you don’t have room for one question let alone five. Pages of questions? Well. When your mental health is bad you would choose to sleep on the street rather than fill a form in. The form can be the worst option. Sounds crazy but to not have to think is a release. It’s Ironic that at a time when technology is held in high esteem our lives are becoming more and more complicated. Case in point from phoning a company straight to a person to having 6 automated options and none that apply and waiting half an hour for a response. That’s not progress. That’s stress inducing.

[wbaliquidator]

We sure are sick nation that’s for sure.
Whilst not totally on topic but I feel relevant never the less
Maybe if the big Pharma conglomerates decided to have even the slightest conscience and be contended with making a good profit rather than extorting governments and maybe at least try to research a cure rather than find a drug which is only deigned to manage an aliment and therefore viewing them as a lifelong revenue stream.

[baggiematt]

I do think what Labour are doing is right. I know people who have PIP. They have conditions but are as capable as anyone in daily life. I genuinely don?t know how they?ve got it unless they have lied.

But the fact they are able to get it is a problem. It leads me to think the tests aren?t robust enough.

Taking that aside, a culture amongst younger people has really obviously formed. We?re creating a crutch for those that don?t want to work, or don?t feel up to challenge and giving them an ?out? of work. It?s totally and utterly unsustainable and frankly it p*sses me off.

This isn?t all people, don?t get me wrong but I do think it?s a substantial amount and growing.

[Leicesterbaggie]

I have always been of the opinion that those who genuinely need benefits do not get what they deserve and that the scrounges have got the system off to a fine art. You are correct omeg in stating that we need far more robust measures in deciding who needs what and that there are more well trained people to deal with these problems.

As for youngsters of today, far too many think that the world owes them a living. As for some parents, I give up! How can they send five year olds to school not potty trained? What have they been doing in those five years? I also think that a big part of the problem is the media. We are bombarded with information on health issues, especially mental health. Prior to so many TV programmes we are warned that the programme includes violence, ***ual content, racism etc., even smoking for Gods sake. It is no wonder people suffer with these problems. Then when the programme has finished we are the informed that if we have been affected by any of these issues , contact this or that number. I could go on but I had better not as I would come across as an uncaring individual which I can assure you that I am not.

My bottom line is, give all those in real need all the help that they require and get the scrounges off their back sides and do something to help themselves.

[Albionic68]

Innocent people are often caught up in crossfire. In this instance I absolutely 100% guarantee a lot of people are going to lose out when they shouldn't. Meanwhile if it all gets too much for those financially, emotionally and or psychologically affected by this they should keep a stiff upper lip and head to Leicester avoiding health campaigns and social media. I feel sure they'll feel better for it in the long run 😉.

[Omegstrat6]

Everything is always more complex. I just hope the vulnerable ones get the help they need. I know with my issues a form with just 5 questions is too much for me. I get angry because when there’s a lot going on in your head you don’t have room for one question let alone five. Pages of questions? Well. When your mental health is bad you would choose to sleep on the street rather than fill a form in. The form can be the worst option. Sounds crazy but to not have to think is a release. It’s Ironic that at a time when technology is held in high esteem our lives are becoming more and more complicated. Case in point from phoning a company straight to a person to having 6 automated options and none that apply and waiting half an hour for a response. That’s not progress. That’s stress inducing.

Totally agree with you Boingy!
Regarding technology, I could give a whole range of examples when some bright spark has introduced some new tech (doubtless based on claims of it being more efficient) to replace existing systems which has clearly not been properly "sandbox" tested first and subsequently causes needless problems.

I'll limit myself to the two I find most frustrating. The first is automated phone services based on poor AI systems that have learnt only the answers to the most basic of queries and provide a host of frustrating blind alleys via a myriad of menu options. Inevitably, they also ask whether you have tried using their online service to find the answer, which-of course-is the very thing you have tried first, not found the answer to your issue and hence your phone call. (How many of us have found ourselves pointlessly swearing at automated phone system in frustration?&#128513. If you are lucky enough to eventually get to speak to a real customer service person it then takes a while to recover from the frustration of navigating their mostly irrelevant automated menus before you feel like being civil despite the relief!

The second is 2 step verification. I do understand the increasing security aspects but with passwords no longer being sufficient we cannot access online accounts for most things without first also getting an authorization code via phone or another e-mail.

Navigating so many systems today is becoming increasingly more difficult and, as you rightly say, many in real need of help are put off by this and simply give up trying. We are not alone by any means in identifying this problem as Age UK and a range of other charities and organizations, particularly around age, disability and mental health, are currently raising the issue with government. Let's hope they can find a solution.

[Omegstrat6]

Innocent people are often caught up in crossfire. In this instance I absolutely 100% guarantee a lot of people are going to lose out when they shouldn't. Meanwhile if it all gets too much for those financially, emotionally and or psychologically affected by this they should keep a stiff upper lip and head to Leicester avoiding health campaigns and social media. I feel sure they'll feel better for it in the long run 😉.

Totally agree with you 68 about those in genuine need who may miss out. There are enough people already who "fall between the cracks" and the danger of this new system, despite any good intentions, is that this may make the situation worse.

As for your ribbing of Leics. regarding stiff upper lips, I get your point but it isn't what he is saying- as I'm sure you know 😉. Tbh, it is tempting to use accusations of "snowflake" / "lazy" with some young people but I find I have to remind myself that they are only the products of their up-bringing. Their lack of resilience, for example, along with levels of expectation is down to changes in parenting, schooling and society. Their inability to fit in and deal with the "real" world is a consequence of this but is a genuine issue none the less which won't be solved by simply telling them to "get a grip".

As for those pre and post programme warnings, Leics. mentioned, I'm sure that many of these pre warnings (violence, ***ual acts, swearing) seem a tad over the top for all of us raised in the 60s and 70s but then it's really just an extension into tv programmes of something that has long been accepted in cinema regarding age classification. My gut feeling is that it is more about self protection than anything else (you can't say we didn't warn you that the programme you allowed your child to watch included rape or murder).

As for the current trend of providing post programme (or even online news story) links to help and support for "those who may have been affected by issues dealt with" surely this is only a good thing? Many such subjects-drug/alcohol abuse, gambling, rape, child abuse, homo***uality, bullying, domestic violence, PTSD.etc-have long been viewed as taboo so to raise their profile can only be beneficial if it enables only a few to seek help and support.

Sadly, however, there are always a minority who will latch onto anything if they think they can find a means to manipulate it for their own ends or financial gain. Raising the profile and understanding of things like mental health or autism is a good thing but there will always be those few who fraudulently exploit the support systems available and add additional pressures to already overwhelmed services, helping to deprive those most in genuine need. This, I'm sure, is what Leics. is referring to-those that grossly -and deliberately -exaggerate their symptoms or else outright lie in order to scam the system. Anyone who denies that this happens is naive at best.

Raising awareness of subjects like mental health or autism is a good thing but the downside is always going to be that in doing so it also brings them to the attention of those on the lookout for excuses if not actual scamming opportunities. This is why more money needs to be spent on making the application system more robust but, at the same time, it also has to be much better in terms of accessibility for those in genuine need.

[Leicesterbaggie]

Thank you Omegstrat, these were my exact sentiments. I want those who genuinely need help to get all that they can and those who just play the system for their own selfish ends get nothing.

[Albionic68]

A truly terrifying world Omeg. I'm just glad I don't have access to the Internet or social media of any kind. Including football forums which strangely enough are indeed considered as examples of social media by some.

If I had a mental health issue and read something which was insensitive that insensitivity in itself could be enough to lower my self-esteem and affect me in some way.

If only this site which I and I don't know how many others don't have access to came with a health warning so we didn't have to bother anyone with what makes our lips tremble and quiver at the merest hint of adversity. Sigh.