The Nestor Model

[On Balance]

The link below was the original thread about the Andrew Nestor game model. I was not a fan of the model. The season is young and the coach is in his honeymoon period and learning. I do wonder however, if the Nestor model is the reason we are very much in a similar situation that we were last season. If you ask the coach to do the same thing with the squad as the previous coach was instructed to do, would the end result be different.

I wonder if Ryan Mason is instructed to follow a method rather than coach his own beliefs. I will admit, he would have known what he was getting into, but does it work.

Is the club doing the same thing time and again and expecting a different result? Is Mason?s hands tied? There is so much similar to Tony Mowbrays second tenure that it is more than coincidence. It is just a thought.

Link to the initial thread re Nestor.

https://boards.footymad.net/showthre...



[Dubbag]

The link below was the original thread about the Andrew Nestor game model. I was not a fan of the model. The season is young and the coach is in his honeymoon period and learning. I do wonder however, if the Nestor model is the reason we are very much in a similar situation that we were last season. If you ask the coach to do the same thing with the squad as the previous coach was instructed to do, would the end result be different.

I wonder if Ryan Mason is instructed to follow a method rather than coach his own beliefs. I will admit, he would have known what he was getting into, but does it work.

Is the club doing the same thing time and again and expecting a different result? Is Mason?s hands tied? There is so much similar to Tony Mowbrays second tenure that it is more than coincidence. It is just a thought.

Link to the initial thread re Nestor.

https://boards.footymad.net/showthre...



Without knowing what was said at the interview for the job, it's hard o know. If a manager is taking a job based on how others want him to do it, that could be tricky. If he has a three year plan then it will even out going forward. Although I don't know how much time ANY manager really has into day's world. Many fickle fans will already have their nerves frayed by these latest results and style of play on the pitch.
He needs to learn quickly and make adjustments accordingly. But in fairness we have a younger squad but technically probably similar to last season.
So still think a transitional season finish of around tenth for me is fine but won't hold any water with fans who wand instant success/wins.
Just not going to happen.

[baggiematt]

For me, the best sides have a blueprint and stick to it. Otherwise you have to keep overhauling players to match a new managers style. It also gives us a clear statistical approach towards finding players which helps us to find talents.

It also gives the academy something to follow, making it easier to get them into the team.

In time, you keep improving the quality and you get more competitive. In theory at least. Liverpool do it and its worked well. Klopp went but they still play 433 high press. Brentford are also big advocates.

I don’t think Mowbray followed what the club wanted at all and I think he resisted the approach. He was a disaster of an appointment.

[baggieal]

For me, the best sides have a blueprint and stick to it. Otherwise you have to keep overhauling players to match a new managers style. It also gives us a clear statistical approach towards finding players which helps us to find talents.

It also gives the academy something to follow, making it easier to get them into the team.

In time, you keep improving the quality and you get more competitive. In theory at least. Liverpool do it and its worked well. Klopp went but they still play 433 high press. Brentford are also big advocates.

I don’t think Mowbray followed what the club wanted at all and I think he resisted the approach. He was a disaster of an appointment.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, For me we need to develop more Fellows and Heggem type of players and sell them on at a big profit. Selecting players like Wallace to start when he?s been a sub for a year and clearly past it is not following any model but going backwards. Mason needs to be ruthless with selections and braver with our young kids. Two minutes for Bostock yesterday when the game was lost at 3-0 was a poor poor decision.

This possession based football of 15/20 passes before it?s in the oppositions box is complete bollox and tedious. What model does this follow?

Millwall were slaughtered by Coventry and we took the handbrake approach. Bringing the better players on later is not rotating them as you would be better starting with the best team and when we have a grip on the game make changes and give certain players a rest. Wallace is ok to come on later but to start FFS and still he?s the captain? Joke!

[baggiematt]

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, For me we need to develop more Fellows and Heggem type of players and sell them on at a big profit. Selecting players like Wallace to start when he?s been a sub for a year and clearly past it is not following any model but going backwards. Mason needs to be ruthless with selections and braver with our young kids. Two minutes for Bostock yesterday when the game was lost at 3-0 was a poor poor decision.

This possession based football of 15/20 passes before it?s in the oppositions box is complete bollox and tedious. What model does this follow?

Millwall were slaughtered by Coventry and we took the handbrake approach. Bringing the better players on later is not rotating them as you would be better starting with the best team and when we have a grip on the game make changes and give certain players a rest. Wallace is ok to come on later but to start FFS and still he?s the captain? Joke!

A mate of mine went and said the criticism of Wallace is laughable. He was the only one on the pitch putting in 100% and trying to drag us forward.

Away at Millwall is not the place for a young talent. They bully players like that, which is what Collyer experienced.

If there is criticism of Mason, it would be the management of Mowatts time. I read that he has not started for us 8 times in last two seasons and we only won one of them. This tells us two things, how integral he is and that we have no backup player that can control like he can. This is something they probably thought Collyer would fix.

At Mowatts age, he probably cant play 3 times in 8 days without risk and consequence, as he isnt shy of a knock. So maybe with better planning he should have started against Millwall instead of Norwich.

[Leicesterbaggie]

A mate of mine went and said the criticism of Wallace is laughable. He was the only one on the pitch putting in 100% and trying to drag us forward.

Away at Millwall is not the place for a young talent. They bully players like that, which is what Collyer experienced.

If there is criticism of Mason, it would be the management of Mowatts time. I read that he has not started for us 8 times in last two seasons and we only won one of them. This tells us two things, how integral he is and that we have no backup player that can control like he can. This is something they probably thought Collyer would fix.

At Mowatts age, he probably cant play 3 times in 8 days without risk and consequence, as he isnt shy of a knock. So maybe with better planning he should have started against Millwall instead of Norwich.

Very astute observation!

[baggieal]

A mate of mine went and said the criticism of Wallace is laughable. He was the only one on the pitch putting in 100% and trying to drag us forward.

Away at Millwall is not the place for a young talent. They bully players like that, which is what Collyer experienced.

If there is criticism of Mason, it would be the management of Mowatts time. I read that he has not started for us 8 times in last two seasons and we only won one of them. This tells us two things, how integral he is and that we have no backup player that can control like he can. This is something they probably thought Collyer would fix.

At Mowatts age, he probably cant play 3 times in 8 days without risk and consequence, as he isnt shy of a knock. So maybe with better planning he should have started against Millwall instead of Norwich.

He has no pace and can?t beat a man Matt. The majority even at games don?t think he should be starting. I will give you he tries but on 30K a week that should be the basic requirement.

Why wouldn?t you bring a young talent on immediately when the game was lost at 3-0 and not with barely 2 mins left?

As mentioned again I don?t mind losing but it?s the way we lose. That Millwall keeper didn?t have one shot to save - that?s embarrassing!

Are Coventry that fantastic or is it partly the way they are playing and set up?

[Omegstrat6]

In the article Nestor acknowledges that Corberan had established "an extremely well organized Game Model" that they did not want to "veer too far away from" but needed to add to that "more of an attacking style". He clearly recognizes that most teams would want to be able to control games and be solid defensively first and then be able to "hurt the opposition" but that whilst Albion had generally achieved the first, they struggled with the second.

Nestor seems very aware that fans had been (and continue to be!) very frustrated by the low level of goals scored, particularly at home and appreciates that our possession based style of play then causes the opposition to react in a certain way with a low block response that we have found hard to break through.

So far, nothing in the above that I think anyone would disagree with. He then goes on to talk about the need to bring in players who are capable of managing the transition from defence to offence and back to better meet the challenges of particular games or opposition and the need for more fluidity. He states the importance of our scouting operation to identify players who fit the model and also our budget.

He talks about the importance of lowering the average age of the squad whilst retaining a mix of experience and youth, and of having a game model that carries through from the Academy to senior team so that the transition upwards is easier and that everyone understands their job within the squad.

I don't think that there is anything there that I disagree with and Mason too has echoed a lot of the above and in several interviews has stressed that it is about the team/ squad and not individuals and has spoken about our need to score more goals and not sit back on fragile one goal leads.

So why are we still repeating the failures of last season-particularly in the last regard? Is it Mason not practicing what he preaches-and, if so, why? Is it the players themselves? A combination of both perhaps? Given the above, I can't see that it is a faulty Game Model, just that we are struggling big time to add that "attacking style of play" and "fluidity" to Corberan's initial defensive/ possession based model. Hence the lack of goals still, the too often pedestrian style build ups and the continued frustration amongst fans.

Football is a lot like politics in that, as Harold Wilson said, "a week is a long time" and the achievements or failings of just a few weeks ago are soon forgotten. We may have still struggled for goals in our early games but we did start to show more attacking intent. Things seemed to be moving in the right direction-they may still, despite Saturday's dire performance.

One of the things that (rightly) annoyed fans-and also Mason judging from his post match comments-from the Millwall game was the lack of cohesion and the lack of intent. The Norwich game we were guilty of sitting on a fragile one goal lead again and consequently rode our luck, but few would argue that it wasn't a good team performance with the players all working for each other. Yes, changes were made at Millwall not least because the Championship requires game management and rotation of players, but this cohesion and work ethic was sadly missing at the Den.

The use of AI/ algorithms has increased dramatically in recent years and is seen in all aspects of our work and lives. It can be a hugely useful tool, but what it cannot do is replace genuine human innovation or "thinking outside the box" and it hampers what we might call "flair". None the less, I believe that the club's Game Model -at least as Nestor explained it-is a good base to work from to be able to achieve the 3 year plan. If it is not working, it is because it is not being implemented properly and consistently but then Mason only has the players he has at his disposal. Not all of them (as I'm sure we are all aware!) are fully capable of meeting the requirements of the Model.

As for Matt's comments on Wallace and Mowatt, I think they are pretty spot on. Yes, both lack pace now but they do have experience and that is valuable within the team. Certainly I would start Mikey ahead of Wallace but Jed is a solid back up for him and in recent games has performed well. I could only listen to the Millwall game but it was he and Mikey who seemed to show the most attacking intent in the match.

Sorry for the length of this post, got carried away! I'm sure 68 will appreciate it though 😀

[baggieal]

In the article Nestor acknowledges that Corberan had established "an extremely well organized Game Model" that they did not want to "veer too far away from" but needed to add to that "more of an attacking style". He clearly recognizes that most teams would want to be able to control games and be solid defensively first and then be able to "hurt the opposition" but that whilst Albion had generally achieved the first, they struggled with the second.

Nestor seems very aware that fans had been (and continue to be!) very frustrated by the low level of goals scored, particularly at home and appreciates that our possession based style of play then causes the opposition to react in a certain way with a low block response that we have found hard to break through.

So far, nothing in the above that I think anyone would disagree with. He then goes on to talk about the need to bring in players who are capable of managing the transition from defence to offence and back to better meet the challenges of particular games or opposition and the need for more fluidity. He states the importance of our scouting operation to identify players who fit the model and also our budget.

He talks about the importance of lowering the average age of the squad whilst retaining a mix of experience and youth, and of having a game model that carries through from the Academy to senior team so that the transition upwards is easier and that everyone understands their job within the squad.

I don't think that there is anything there that I disagree with and Mason too has echoed a lot of the above and in several interviews has stressed that it is about the team/ squad and not individuals and has spoken about our need to score more goals and not sit back on fragile one goal leads.

So why are we still repeating the failures of last season-particularly in the last regard? Is it Mason not practicing what he preaches-and, if so, why? Is it the players themselves? A combination of both perhaps? Given the above, I can't see that it is a faulty Game Model, just that we are struggling big time to add that "attacking style of play" and "fluidity" to Corberan's initial defensive/ possession based model. Hence the lack of goals still, the too often pedestrian style build ups and the continued frustration amongst fans.

Football is a lot like politics in that, as Harold Wilson said, "a week is a long time" and the achievements or failings of just a few weeks ago are soon forgotten. We may have still struggled for goals in our early games but we did start to show more attacking intent. Things seemed to be moving in the right direction-they may still, despite Saturday's dire performance.

One of the things that (rightly) annoyed fans-and also Mason judging from his post match comments-from the Millwall game was the lack of cohesion and the lack of intent. The Norwich game we were guilty of sitting on a fragile one goal lead again and consequently rode our luck, but few would argue that it wasn't a good team performance with the players all working for each other. Yes, changes were made at Millwall not least because the Championship requires game management and rotation of players, but this cohesion and work ethic was sadly missing at the Den.

The use of AI/ algorithms has increased dramatically in recent years and is seen in all aspects of our work and lives. It can be a hugely useful tool, but what it cannot do is replace genuine human innovation or "thinking outside the box" and it hampers what we might call "flair". None the less, I believe that the club's Game Model -at least as Nestor explained it-is a good base to work from to be able to achieve the 3 year plan. If it is not working, it is because it is not being implemented properly and consistently but then Mason only has the players he has at his disposal. Not all of them (as I'm sure we are all aware!) are fully capable of meeting the requirements of the Model.

As for Matt's comments on Wallace and Mowatt, I think they are pretty spot on. Yes, both lack pace now but they do have experience and that is valuable within the team. Certainly I would start Mikey ahead of Wallace but Jed is a solid back up for him and in recent games has performed well. I could only listen to the Millwall game but it was he and Mikey who seemed to show the most attacking intent in the match.

Sorry for the length of this post, got carried away! I'm sure 68 will appreciate it though 😀

The frustration of many is the switching of key players so there?s a lack of consistency and cohesion. Is that intent to win a match with Wallace and Heggebo? No. For me you don?t chop and change key players. Junior is a race horse compared to Wallace and Maja usually knows where the net is. Three games in X amount of days some might say! My point is don?t tamper with the best key players who should start the match and then bring them off if necessary as opposed to bringing them on to chase a game when it?s lost. There?s no tampering with Phillips or Mepham to make my point clear.

Don?t buy the lots of experience comment either. Hugill and Zohore had lots of experience but they were ****e! Jed is ok to bring on but to start come on? He has no pace and can?t beat a player FFS! You need a real leader for Captain who plays 90 minutes ie Phillips. Shocking Wallace is still the captain.

Take Coventry - they set up to attack and win plus Asante is now playing on the flanks and not a lone number 9 like he was with us! Coventry get the ball forward at pace and don?t dilly dally with 15 sideways passes so the opposition can get back and work out the tactic.

Are Coventry any better than us? Debatable but they do have a manager who is trying to win the game and score goals. We don?t as clearly seen. Heggebo hold the ball up well but not quick enough with his feet and certainly not clinical. At the moment I would play Heggebo with Maja and drop Price because lately he?s been a waste of space.

[Omegstrat6]

The frustration of many is the switching of key players so there?s a lack of consistency and cohesion. Is that intent to win a match with Wallace and Heggebo? No. For me you don?t chop and change key players. Junior is a race horse compared to Wallace and Maja usually knows where the net is. Three games in X amount of days some might say! My point is don?t tamper with the best key players who should start the match and then bring them off if necessary as opposed to bringing them on to chase a game when it?s lost. There?s no tampering with Phillips or Mepham to make my point clear.

Don?t buy the lots of experience comment either. Hugill and Zohore had lots of experience but they were ****e! Jed is ok to bring on but to start come on? He has no pace and can?t beat a player FFS! You need a real leader for Captain who plays 90 minutes ie Phillips. Shocking Wallace is still the captain.

Take Coventry - they set up to attack and win plus Asante is now playing on the flanks and not a lone number 9 like he was with us! Coventry get the ball forward at pace and don?t dilly dally with 15 sideways passes so the opposition can get back and work out the tactic.

Are Coventry any better than us? Debatable but they do have a manager who is trying to win the game and score goals. We don?t as clearly seen. Heggebo hold the ball up well but not quick enough with his feet and certainly not clinical. At the moment I would play Heggebo with Maja and drop Price because lately he?s been a waste of space.

Totally agree with your last 2 paragraphs Al! As for Wallace, as I've said, I certainly would not start him but whilst he clearly lacks pace I still think that his experience counts for something and when brought on in recent games he has shown attacking intent.

The crux of the issue is that in a league like the Championship you are going to have to rotate players and need a decent "shadow team" to do so effectively. Here, Mason is limited in his available options. Price is no winger and with Grant (whose energy I believe we miss) injured we really only have Wallace as a back up for Mikey or Illing Junior. Having said this, I don't disagree with you that Mason's starting selections have too often been baffling and do not show the attacking intent we would want.

Going back to OB's point, I don't think it is the Game Model itself that is the problem, more that we lack enough players with the qualities to implement it properly or consistently. The counter argument, of course, is then not to force a game model on players who cannot match it's requirement, but rather ditch the model and play to the strengths that we do have. The issue then, is whether this would really improve performances.

Bottom line though is that our defensive set up of Griffiths, Campbell (yes, I know he is not great going forward but I'm talking defensively), Phillips, Mepham and Taylor is pretty sound and doesn't need tampering with. It's the midfield and attackers that need sorting and whilst Mason's options here are limited, I share the frustrations of others around those he does chose to start.