OT - Has anyone seen Nigel?

[SithHappens]

GP has a point in that people are being told by the likes of Farage and his motley crew to question why the response for George Floyd (who they continue to state was a criminal) when the response for Henry Nowak has been different.

My personal view is that outside the likes of Farage, Reform, Restore and Robinson, most white people don't feel they are persecuted or subject to racism in the same way a person of colour may do. That's why there is no knee taking. It doesn't mean people aren't horrified by it.

I don't believe there was anything racially motivated in the way the police acted, the police chose to believe the wrong people, and ignored the poor lads cries for help, a massive mistake which answers are needed. No one can feel anything but horror watching those scenes and your heart goes out to him.

The problem is the noisy minority either are convinced by, or choose to be, by Farage etc and their brand of hatred, its those who believe, or want to to justify their own hatred, that white people are the victims of racial hatred more than anyone else.

[ramAnag]

GP has a point in that people are being told by the likes of Farage and his motley crew to question why the response for George Floyd (who they continue to state was a criminal) when the response for Henry Nowak has been different.

My personal view is that outside the likes of Farage, Reform, Restore and Robinson, most white people don't feel they are persecuted or subject to racism in the same way a person of colour may do. That's why there is no knee taking. It doesn't mean people aren't horrified by it.

I don't believe there was anything racially motivated in the way the police acted, the police chose to believe the wrong people, and ignored the poor lads cries for help, a massive mistake which answers are needed. No one can feel anything but horror watching those scenes and your heart goes out to him.

The problem is the noisy minority either are convinced by, or choose to be, by Farage etc and their brand of hatred, its those who believe, or want to to justify their own hatred, that white people are the victims of racial hatred more than anyone else.

GP doesn’t have a point, imo. He is just indulging in his usual irresponsible, dangerous and sad mischief making.
The differences are that the protests against the death of George Floyd were based on the fact that Floyd was murdered by a police officer while other officers watched on, preventing anyone intervening, during the nine minutes he took to die, adding further evidence to the growing belief at the time that systemic racism existed within the Minneapolis police dept.

In the case of Henry Nowak, he appears from what we understand, to have been entirely innocent and the police involvement appears to have been confused (perhaps understandably) inept and incompetent rather than in any way malicious.
Footage of the incident is deeply distressing and must be unspeakably awful for members of the Nowak family. The frustration at police incompetence is justified however its manifestation in Southampton last night, with the usual flag waving, Unite the Kingdom brigade to the fore, was not and was, imo, gleefully manufactured by the likes of Robinson and the opportunist Farage.

[Geoff Parkstone]

rA "gleefully manufactured by the likes of Robinson and the opportunist Farage"

Whereas the mass looting and rioting associated with and exploiting the unlawful death of Floyd was fine? So far as Ive heard the marches in Southampton were largely peaceable and certainly not used as a cover for wholesale larceny. Perhaps I may need to add a "yet" to that statement.

There are certainly differences between the two killings - one was carried out by a serving police officer, the latter was enabled (aided and abetted, some might say) by one or more police. But the actual murderer in both cases has been apprehended and sentenced. The point I was trying to make before being shot down by the usual reverse racist culprit is the nation-wide or global reaction. Globally out of the ashes of the rioting, BLM (itself seemingly corrupt) was born and the sports world adopted the knee. A huge outcry in support of a career criminal unlawfully killed. Compare this to the somewhat muted shrug of the shoulders over the unlawful death of an innocent teenager.

The peaceful (so far) protests in Southampton have been villified as political opportunism by those themselves trying to make political headway against Farage. Which one is guilty of using a tragedy for their own benefit? Almost certainly both. This case should not have been used by either side of the political debate to try and gain traction - its a sad indictment of grassroots politics where the real victims (and I include the murderer's family in that categorisation) are being made victims all over again and arguably exploited by both extremes of the political spectrum equally hell bent on lighting blue touchpapers.

Before Farage said a word, noone on this forum had commented (that I can see) about this case. As soon as he did people were up in arms, not out of respect for, or expressing support for, the victim but using it to have a go at Farage themselves. Pathetic. I despair for mankind on occasions such as this

rA "He is just indulging in his usual irresponsible, dangerous and sad mischief making."

Your usual dismissive explanation for something you disagree with. The credibility of that excuse has long since flown the coop.

[SithHappens]

GP they weren't peaceful, 11 police officers injured during the unrest

Also think its unfair to say no thought of Henry Nowak. Just because no posts on this particular forum doesn't mean its not something people find horrific.

Stop finding ways to defend farage, its appalling what he said and its right to say so.

[SithHappens]

GP doesn’t have a point, imo. He is just indulging in his usual irresponsible, dangerous and sad mischief making.
The differences are that the protests against the death of George Floyd were based on the fact that Floyd was murdered by a police officer while other officers watched on, preventing anyone intervening, during the nine minutes he took to die, adding further evidence to the growing belief at the time that systemic racism existed within the Minneapolis police dept.

In the case of Henry Nowak, he appears from what we understand, to have been entirely innocent and the police involvement appears to have been confused (perhaps understandably) inept and incompetent rather than in any way malicious.
Footage of the incident is deeply distressing and must be unspeakably awful for members of the Nowak family. The frustration at police incompetence is justified however its manifestation in Southampton last night, with the usual flag waving, Unite the Kingdom brigade to the fore, was not and was, imo, gleefully manufactured by the likes of Robinson and the opportunist Farage.

Think we agree, my point was just that the George Floyd comparison is being churned out so its a valid question to say are the two comparable, which imo they are not.

[ramAnag]

rA "gleefully manufactured by the likes of Robinson and the opportunist Farage"

Whereas the mass looting and rioting associated with and exploiting the unlawful death of Floyd was fine? So far as Ive heard the marches in Southampton were largely peaceable and certainly not used as a cover for wholesale larceny. Perhaps I may need to add a "yet" to that statement.

There are certainly differences between the two killings - one was carried out by a serving police officer, the latter was enabled (aided and abetted, some might say) by one or more police. But the actual murderer in both cases has been apprehended and sentenced. The point I was trying to make before being shot down by the usual reverse racist culprit is the nation-wide or global reaction. Globally out of the ashes of the rioting, BLM (itself seemingly corrupt) was born and the sports world adopted the knee. A huge outcry in support of a career criminal unlawfully killed. Compare this to the somewhat muted shrug of the shoulders over the unlawful death of an innocent teenager.

The peaceful (so far) protests in Southampton have been villified as political opportunism by those themselves trying to make political headway against Farage. Which one is guilty of using a tragedy for their own benefit? Almost certainly both. This case should not have been used by either side of the political debate to try and gain traction - its a sad indictment of grassroots politics where the real victims (and I include the murderer's family in that categorisation) are being made victims all over again and arguably exploited by both extremes of the political spectrum equally hell bent on lighting blue touchpapers.

Before Farage said a word, noone on this forum had commented (that I can see) about this case. As soon as he did people were up in arms, not out of respect for, or expressing support for, the victim but using it to have a go at Farage themselves. Pathetic. I despair for mankind on occasions such as this

rA "He is just indulging in his usual irresponsible, dangerous and sad mischief making."

Your usual dismissive explanation for something you disagree with. The credibility of that excuse has long since flown the coop.

Where have I, or anyone on here who sympathised with the BLM movement, EVER supported the violence and looting that became associated with the murder of George Floyd? To save you time I’ll answer for you…I/we haven’t

If you think the protests in Southampton were peaceful I suggest you watch the news, go and visit the injured police officers, injured police dog and the unfortunate owners of the vehicles damaged by flying bricks. Please stop spouting nonsense…the ‘protests’ were not peaceful.

You’re right. To their credit no one on here had commented until after Farage spoke yesterday morning. Probably too shocked. Sith, very reasonably, reacted to what Farage went out of his way to say and I then commented in support of Sith’s opinions and to further comment on Farage’s point scoring activities. It’s a forum…that’s how they work.

Then you chipped in with your usual mischievous nonsense which you’ve only compounded today and if you’re looking for reasons to ‘despair’ then try a mirror…an otherwise intelligent poster who repeatedly posts offensive and malicious nonsense…that’s what makes me ‘despair’.

Finally…I don’t dismiss views I disagree with…I regularly ‘give way’ to you on matters where you display your expertise (eg finance and tax matters) but I do dismiss your all too regular outbursts of unthinking, malicious nonsense and will continue to do so.

[Andy_Faber]

Before Farage said a word, noone on this forum had commented (that I can see) about this case. As soon as he did people were up in arms, not out of respect for, or expressing support for, the victim but using it to have a go at Farage themselves. Pathetic.

I'm limiting my screen time so can't comment so I'll just say this is spot on and something I expected before it happened - Try to divert from the heinous act (note: the police actions not the original incident) and the twisted ideology which drove it by criticising the response to it. HMG have (and having just seen the news, are continuing to do so) adopted this diversionary tactic which reflects equally badly on them

[Andy_Faber]

GP has a point in that people are being told by the likes of Farage and his motley crew to question why the response for George Floyd (who they continue to state was a criminal) when the response for Henry Nowak has been different.

I beg to differ - people are making their own minds up, Farage as a populist politician is merely feeding off the resultant anger.

[ramAnag]

I'm limiting my screen time so can't comment so I'll just say this is spot on and something I expected before it happened - Try to divert from the heinous act (note: the police actions not the original incident) and the twisted ideology which drove it by criticising the response to it. HMG have (and having just seen the news, are continuing to do so) adopted this diversionary tactic which reflects equally badly on them

I’m limiting my screen time so can’t comment’…but I will anyway.

How the hell does this reflect badly on the Government?
A criminal/murderer has, for whatever reason, twisted the facts in a very unusual way in so much as it must be rare for a perpetrator to actually report a crime - although John Worboys and Mick Philpott do spring to mind.
The policeman - who didn’t sound the sharpest knife in the block and has, I believe, subsequently resigned - appears to have handled the matter particularly badly.
The outcome has been an utterly tragic death which some are now seeking to make political capital out of, but how it is the Government’s/Starmer’s/Labour’s fault is beyond me.

[Andy_Faber]

I’m limiting my screen time so can’t comment’…but I will anyway.

How the hell does this reflect badly on the Government?

30 mins a day on social media hence I quoted GP instead of writing my own missive. If you’re that easily confused you should be concerned

HMG have spent more time talking about the fallout of the incident than the incident itself or the police ethos that may (only may, the inquiry will decide) have resulted in their actions. The plebiscite will/ are seeing through that - not you or Sith clearly but for every ying there’s a yang (or maybe more than one going by current indicators)

4mins

[ramAnag]

30 mins a day on social media hence I quoted GP instead of writing my own missive. If you?’re that easily confused you should be concerned

HMG have spent more time talking about the fallout of the incident than the incident itself or the police ethos that may (only may, the inquiry will decide) have resulted in their actions. The plebiscite will/ are seeing through that - not you or Sith clearly but for every ying there?’s a yang (or maybe more than one going by current indicators)

4mins

Oh I’m sorry. It’s just that I find someone prefacing their comment by saying they ‘can’t comment’ just a tad contradictory.

Still no idea what the PM/HMG have done wrong in this case and for all your collective bluster neither you nor GP seem willing to explain.

P.S. It’s YIN and Yang btw.

[Geoff Parkstone]

I draw your attention to the question mark at the end of the first sentence. I did not suggest you or anyone thought it was fine - but you reacted. No smoke without fire eh?? (note the question mark here too)

I did preface "peaceful" with "so far" in anticipation of it worsening. Seems like it deteriorated a little quicker than my TV viewing window. My bad.

As for the rest of your comments, someone once recently said "It?s a forum?that?s how they work." and the same goes both ways. To your tripe which I disagree with, and mine which you disagree with. Get over it.

I really wish you'd read post rather than scan them and take instant umbrage. You say you hate bullies - why do you use those tactics yourself on those who don't see things your way. "Exchange of opinion is fine as long as it's mine being exchanged'

To quote that former man of Southampton Rupert Lowe" I dont care. Maybe you saw that during your hours of TV vigil.

[ramAnag]

I draw your attention to the question mark at the end of the first sentence. I did not suggest you or anyone thought it was fine - but you reacted. No smoke without fire eh?? (note the question mark here too)

I did preface "peaceful" with "so far" in anticipation of it worsening. Seems like it deteriorated a little quicker than my TV viewing window. My bad.

As for the rest of your comments, someone once recently said "It?s a forum?that?s how they work." and the same goes both ways. To your tripe which I disagree with, and mine which you disagree with. Get over it.

I really wish you'd read post rather than scan them and take instant umbrage. You say you hate bullies - why do you use those tactics yourself on those who don't see things your way. "Exchange of opinion is fine as long as it's mine being exchanged'

To quote that former man of Southampton Rupert Lowe" I dont care. Maybe you saw that during your hours of TV vigil.

I reacted because it’s a particularly tragic case that the usual suspects are seeking to gain political traction out of.

My ‘viewing window’ today was such that I watched the news having breakfast and again at lunch time. Does that qualify as a ‘vigil’? I don’t think so, but even by 8.30 this morning it was patently obvious that your description of what you call a peaceful protest was hopelessly incorrect and you didn’t know what you were talking about.

Your comment about me only respecting my own opinion is demonstrably untrue and I’d love to know how you think I’ve ever bullied anyone on this forum. I won’t hold my breath waiting for that reply.

I don’t think I take ‘instant umbrage’, but I am regularly infuriated by your tiresome little tasteless asides. The latest example was your own instant and, imo, foolish comparison between the murders of this poor young man and George Floyd. For the reasons I gave this morning I don’t believe there to be any meaningful comparison. You seem to have avoided commenting further on that one or on how this awful event is the fault of Labour and the PM.

[Geoff Parkstone]

I don't believe I've ever suggested it was the fault of the government. Nor would I as it's irrational to do so.

However there appears to be an ethos fostered by the government and perpetuated by the judiciary that "hurty words" are much worse than what one might call real crimes. Part of me thinks this underpins the police's reaction to the one said (hurty racist words) and the other said he had been stabbed. The inability of the attending officers to establish and prioritise the importance no doubt contributed to the death of a young man. That inability (or perhaps unconscious bias) has I think it's roots in a culture of reverse racism encouraged by HMG and the judiciary.

And before you (or someone else) accuses me of "swallowing right wing propaganda" - the usual response to anyone questioning the virtues of cultural diversification - let me say I don't swallow anything for anyone: not even for my boyfriend.

[ramAnag]

I don't believe I've ever suggested it was the fault of the government. Nor would I as it's irrational to do so.

However there appears to be an ethos fostered by the government and perpetuated by the judiciary that "hurty words" are much worse than what one might call real crimes. Part of me thinks this underpins the police's reaction to the one said (hurty racist words) and the other said he had been stabbed. The inability of the attending officers to establish and prioritise the importance no doubt contributed to the death of a young man. That inability (or perhaps unconscious bias) has I think it's roots in a culture of reverse racism encouraged by HMG and the judiciary.

And before you (or someone else) accuses me of "swallowing right wing propaganda" - the usual response to anyone questioning the virtues of cultural diversification - let me say I don't swallow anything for anyone: not even for my boyfriend.

Plenty have and you, as is your way these days, have been quick to jump on to the Farage bandwagon.

I believe this transcends what you describe as ‘hurty words’. You know as well as I do that the police have had a reputation for systemic racism in the past and that has had to change.

I’m not sure racism is actually an issue here. The perpetrator was a Sikh, who used a claim of racism as some sort of excuse for the original incident. The whole matter is as bewildering as it is tragic. The initial police handling of it astonishingly poor, but then again their job is immensely difficult and perhaps it would be best to let the enquiry do its job rather than incite reactionary violence as I believe Farage, and others, have done.

In the meantime I’d politely suggest that, although there may be a place for juvenile innuendo on this forum, this is not one of them.