OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

In 2008 the pound hit 0.80 against the euro. Was you saying the same thing then?

Why would I have been? That was due to the global economic crisis and the rapid fall in interest rates, not self inflicted damage via a vote by many who didn't, and quite probably still don't, know what they were voting for.

[Andy_Faber]

And they need dealing with as well.
Here's a job, do it or nothing.

I'm with Tricky on this one, I'm fairly hardcore on shirkers. The best summary on the subject of welfare I ever heard was not from a politician (surprise surprise) but from a racing driver, the great Mario Andretti, who responded to being asked why he emptied his pockets for a (genuine, paraplegic) beggar in Rio, responded 'I help those who can't help themselves, not those who won't help themselves'.

[Trickytreesreds]

Why would I have been? That was due to the global economic crisis and the rapid fall in interest rates, not self inflicted damage via a vote by many who didn't, and quite probably still don't, know what they were voting for.

The point was ramanag, there is always a crisis around the corner, whether we want it or not.
Before the vote, there was major talk from the bank of England about a world slump and recession.
Long term, I'd sooner face a fight I know is coming, than one I don't. It also lets me see the goals I need to achieve to get where I want.

I don't like being threatened by fear of the unknown, which Cameron/Osborn/Subury/Obama portrayed.
I work my nuts off for my company, I will continue to do so. My vision and reaches will soon be way past the horizon.
Glass half full and not empty, which remoaners portray etc.

[ramAnag]

I'm with Tricky on this one, I'm fairly hardcore on shirkers. The best summary on the subject of welfare I ever heard was not from a politician (surprise surprise) but from a racing driver, the great Mario Andretti, who responded to being asked why he emptied his pockets for a (genuine, paraplegic) beggar in Rio, responded 'I help those who can't help themselves, not those who won't help themselves'.

Perfectly reasonable sentiment it is too Andy, but I wasn't aware there are any on here who actively support 'shirkers' and I'm not at all sure what any of it has to do with Brexit.

As for 'being threatened by fear of the unknown' Tricky...isn't that exactly what many business leaders/owners are so worried about in this post referendum climate?

[Trickytreesreds]

Perfectly reasonable sentiment it is too Andy, but I wasn't aware there are any on here who actively support 'shirkers' and I'm not at all sure what any of it has to do with Brexit.

As for 'being threatened by fear of the unknown' Tricky...isn't that exactly what many business leaders/owners are so worried about in this post referendum climate?

Ramanag, without trying to sound preaching.
It was said the earth was flat
It was said that after 30 mph the human brain would explode
It was said that the sound barrier couldn't be breached
It was said that man couldn't be on the moon

The point is that it is down to us, to make it work. Not some bureaucrat in Brussels, who hasn't done a days work in his/hers life to tell us what to do.
It's ours to grab.

I sound like Del Boy now, let he who dares wins.

We're free of the restraints and regulations and the drive to a super state. I never wanted/voted for that. It was always the end goal and once trapped, you're in.
Democracy, which you despute in the vote, was never implemented for the EU. I call that justice.

[triz]

I always find it says a lot about someone's capacity to think for themselves when they start soap boxing about 'benefit scroungers', when it's tax avoidance from corporations and the elites which cost the economy so much more. You have to ask yourself why one angers you so much more over the other. And if you have any ability to reason left in you, you must conclude that the answer is, it's because that's what you were told to think. Hate the poor and let the rich keep screwing you.

[ramAnag]

Ramanag, without trying to sound preaching.
It was said the earth was flat
It was said that after 30 mph the human brain would explode
It was said that the sound barrier couldn't be breached
It was said that man couldn't be on the moon

The point is that it is down to us, to make it work. Not some bureaucrat in Brussels, who hasn't done a days work in his/hers life to tell us what to do.
It's ours to grab.

I sound like Del Boy now, let he who dares wins.

We're free of the restraints and regulations and the drive to a super state. I never wanted/voted for that. It was always the end goal and once trapped, you're in.
Democracy, which you despute in the vote, was never implemented for the EU. I call that justice.

And there's the difference between us...well one of them. I don't see it as being 'down to us to make it work', I see it as being down to us to bring a halt to this terribly ill conceived mistake. I don't feel as if I'm being told what to do by 'some bureaucrat in Brussels' and you have no idea whether such people have 'done a day's work in their life' or not. I understand your objection to what you describe as a 'super state' but it seems likely we're going to swap membership of the EU for becoming beholden to the U.S. and I don't think that's what anyone wanted either. As for being 'free of restraints and regulations', can't say I've ever felt restrained or regulated by Europe but I'm certainly not best pleased at the prospect of higher fuel bills, more expensive food, longer air and ferry port queues and much more costly holidays, but each to their own...maybe that was part of the plan all along.

[Andy_Faber]

Perfectly reasonable sentiment it is too Andy, but I wasn't aware there are any on here who actively support 'shirkers' and I'm not at all sure what any of it has to do with Brexit.

As for 'being threatened by fear of the unknown' Tricky...isn't that exactly what many business leaders/owners are so worried about in this post referendum climate?

I was off on my own tangent for a minute there - I hate shirkers of all races, creeds and colours, my crude economics says if benefits for shirkers went down to zero, QED (or ergo?) the UK would be unattractive to EU shirkers. I'm off to troll facebook before I suggest a return to National Service

[Ram59]

Perfectly reasonable sentiment it is too Andy, but I wasn't aware there are any on here who actively support 'shirkers' and I'm not at all sure what any of it has to do with Brexit.

As for 'being threatened by fear of the unknown' Tricky...isn't that exactly what many business leaders/owners are so worried about in this post referendum climate?

Is that why the latest set of figures for December have business confidence at an 18 month high of about 58 after dropping down to 47 in July in the post brexit scaremongering.

[ramAnag]

Is that why the latest set of figures for December have business confidence at an 18 month high of about 58 after dropping down to 47 in July in the post brexit scaremongering.

Or...to put it another way...that'll be the 'business confidence' that was at +15 this time two years ago, slipped to -47 in the immediate aftermath of the referendum and is currently running at -8 even before yesterday's announcements. Still never mind...our esteemed foreign secretary says other countries are 'queuing up' to do business with us and we all know how totally trustworthy he is.

[AdiSalisbury]

I always find it says a lot about someone's capacity to think for themselves when they start soap boxing about 'benefit scroungers', when it's tax avoidance from corporations and the elites which cost the economy so much more. You have to ask yourself why one angers you so much more over the other. And if you have any ability to reason left in you, you must conclude that the answer is, it's because that's what you were told to think. Hate the poor and let the rich keep screwing you.

It's not hating the poor, its hating those taking advantage of a system that is there for people who need it out of misfortune. Why should these people have all the things you burn your ass off for, for free?

[Ram59]

Or...to put it another way...that'll be the 'business confidence' that was at +15 this time two years ago, slipped to -47 in the immediate aftermath of the referendum and is currently running at -8 even before yesterday's announcements. Still never mind...our esteemed foreign secretary says other countries are 'queuing up' to do business with us and we all know how totally trustworthy he is.

I was referring to the purchasing managers index in which anything over 50 is seen to be a positive outlook, whereas you're claiming that businesses are gloomy because of brexit. Figures do go up and down because of the world economy, but a better idea of how brexit is affecting us is to compare our figures with others. In this case our PMI index is the highest of any leading industrial nation, including USA, China and Germany. Things are maybe not quite so bad as you make out.

[roger_ramjet]

I always find it says a lot about someone's capacity to think for themselves when they start soap boxing about 'benefit scroungers', when it's tax avoidance from corporations and the elites which cost the economy so much more. You have to ask yourself why one angers you so much more over the other. And if you have any ability to reason left in you, you must conclude that the answer is, it's because that's what you were told to think. Hate the poor and let the rich keep screwing you.

An interesting perspective here, but I question its logic.

The "benefit scroungers" take resources away from those perhaps more needy but in no way contribute anything to society except maybe boosting profits of the tobacco and alcohol industry! Per capita they may not take much in the overall scheme of things but if you compare them to people who put in a 35-40 hour shifts and more on minimum wage to survive and pay their rent then you can understand the resentment.

Equally the mega corporations that position themselves in tax favourable environments are also leeches on the system, not paying their fair share to the exchequer. Companies doing this, and I dont need to name name as those names are already out there, bugger up the money circulation argument by partly taking it out of the UK economy as untaxed profits. However they do employ significant numbers of people which reduces the burden on the state system and also, by doing so, contribute tax take to the exchequer via VAT and payroll taxes and NI. Where this goes wrong is if they use predominantly migrant labour - as many do - in which case the money circulation is further encumbered by not only repatriation of untaxed profits not spent in the domestic economy but also repatriation of excess net wages overseas which are thus not spent in the domestic economy. So I would say the jury is out as to whether they are good or bad - a mixture of both I reckon. Could be better, but overall our economy may benefit from the job creation, so long as it is using UK domiciled labour.

And so to the 3rd "devil" - the elite rich - by which one assumes you mean those savvy enough to use tax advisors or accountants to optimise, within the rules, their tax bills. The fault here lies with the makers of the rules who create the opportunities for those people to massage their tax bills favourably.

The root of the problem lies in personal jealousies - the haves despise the have nots for taking but not working - the have nots despise the haves for having more than they do. Both parties are equally guilty of playing the system, some for bigger amounts than others but one cannot overlook the fact that ultimately without the wealth creators, the have not would not have any safety ney to exploit.

Personally I would recommend a radical overhaul of the whole thing. Abolish income tax as it is so complex that it creates the loopholes. Increase expenditure taxes such as VAT and fuel/fags/booze taxes etc to partly compensate. Bring in a simple annual wealth tax so as to make up the gap. Overhaul the unemployment benefits system so that it is linked to employment history: if you aint paid in you cant draw out anything after a period of time. Obviously have to introduce safety nets for disabled, school leavers etc.

There is a strong argument in my mind for splitting and partly privatising the components that NI pays for: pensions are being eased into the private sector and imposed on the employer; medical care has had components of private insurance for years. So split out the rest of it and make it voluntary for people to pay into. If you dont think you will need unemployment benefit, dont buy into it. There is too much nannying going on.

Introduce better job training systems free of charge, and direct it to economic need: how many more social media graduates does the country need!! Make university education a privilege again and not a right - and invest in more technical colleges to teach basic skills, particularly IT and make most of it apprenticeship based so a combination of theoretical and practical learning. Simples! Well maybe not

[triz]

It's not hating the poor, its hating those taking advantage of a system that is there for people who need it out of misfortune. Why should these people have all the things you burn your ass off for, for free?

They shouldn't and it's unfair. The question is why it bothers you more than the rich swindling you out of much much more. And as I said, the answer is because you have been told to think that way.

[AdiSalisbury]

I haven't been told that, it's wrong that you make that assumption. It bothers me a hell of a lot that corporations swindle the tax system, especially as I complete a self assessment each year and have to save a large proportion of my profits to pay in tax / NI / student loan.

The scrounger thing is closer to home, we all know that person who's got a massive telly, PS4, and just come back from a week in the sun, only to hit the pub as soon as they come back, yet you know they haven't worked a day in their life. It's personal, why should I work and pay for them?