OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[triz]

I haven't been told that, it's wrong that you make that assumption. It bothers me a hell of a lot that corporations swindle the tax system, especially as I complete a self assessment each year and have to save a large proportion of my profits to pay in tax / NI / student loan.

The scrounger thing is closer to home, we all know that person who's got a massive telly, PS4, and just come back from a week in the sun, only to hit the pub as soon as they come back, yet you know they haven't worked a day in their life. It's personal, why should I work and pay for them?

You have been told that, it is no assumption. It's in papers every day, it's on tv everyday (the amount of benefit Britain type programmes) it's on the radio, it's on the Internet (including this very forum). It'spropaganda, to which we are all susceptible, but some are more aware of it than others.

Whenever I raise this point to people the standard answer is ALWAYS, I do care about the tax avoiders scamming us. And my response is always, well why do you only ever talk and moan about benefit scroungers (who cost us a minuscule amount in comparison). The answer always comes back to the same thing, you are being told what to think, wether you are aware of it or not.

[Trickytreesreds]

You have been told that, it is no assumption. It's in papers every day, it's on tv everyday (the amount of benefit Britain type programmes) it's on the radio, it's on the Internet (including this very forum). It'spropaganda, to which we are all susceptible, but some are more aware of it than others.

Whenever I raise this point to people the standard answer is ALWAYS, I do care about the tax avoiders scamming us. And my response is always, well why do you only ever talk and moan about benefit scroungers (who cost us a minuscule amount in comparison). The answer always comes back to the same thing, you are being told what to think, wether you are aware of it or not.

I get what Triz is saying, but I think when your next door neighbour is scamming everyone, it's more in your face.
He's living his life, on your street, in your local out of your own pocket. Usually laughing about it. Doesn't in anyway excuse the abuse of the system from corporate or the elite. It's because a fellow working class, is abusing the working class.

The facts are I could report my neighbour or give them grief. How can I scream at the elite scam?
More a measure of the governments we elect in both counts.

[triz]

Put simply. You work hard adi I'm sure, you pay your fair share in order to run the country and to pay for the services that you and the rest of the country use. However there are lots and lots of very rich people who earn a lot more than you who don't think they want to pay for the services they use, never mind services that others use (think Cameron's multi millionaire daddy). And that's before we come onto corporations. They are literally stealing out of your pocket. And a lot more than so called benefit scroungers. Now if there was uproar everyday over all our media about this instead of benefit scroungers you would be furious about that instead.Yes you would still be annoyed at the benefit people, but you'd rightly and logically reserve your fury for the people who steal more from you. But it just so happens those very people run the media you consume.

[triz]

I get what Triz is saying, but I think when your next door neighbour is scamming everyone, it's more in your face.
He's living his life, on your street, in your local out of your own pocket. Usually laughing about it. Doesn't in anyway excuse the abuse of the system from corporate or the elite. It's because a fellow working class, is abusing the working class.

The facts are I could report my neighbour or give them grief. How can I scream at the elite scam?
More a measure of the governments we elect in both counts.

I can see how it'd make you mad as its in your face (although it's not something I've ever experienced). But we need to think logically and direct our anger at the right people. And if enough people are angry stuff can get done. Cleverer people than me will force it to happen, but it won't ever happen as the 'look over there' tricks the elite pull will forever pull the wool over people's eyes. It's easier to punch down so that's what will happen.

Everyone knows trump was a mass scale tax avoider but idiots worship him, if he was a benefit scroungers he'd never have been loved by anyone.

[ramAnag]

I can see how it'd make you mad as its in your face (although it's not something I've ever experienced). But we need to think logically and direct our anger at the right people. And if enough people are angry stuff can get done. Cleverer people than me will force it to happen, but it won't ever happen as the 'look over there' tricks the elite pull will forever pull the wool over people's eyes. It's easier to punch down so that's what will happen.

Everyone knows trump was a mass scale tax avoider but idiots worship him, if he was a benefit scroungers he'd never have been loved by anyone.

In a nutshell...like!

Roger, don't you think if we abolished income tax and replaced it with a 'simple wealth tax' then all the professional financial filibusters and personal accountants - absolutely no personal slur intended - would simply change their aim accordingly to hide real wealth and make their clients look poorer, meaning that we'd just be back to square one?

[AdiSalisbury]

Put simply. You work hard adi I'm sure, you pay your fair share in order to run the country and to pay for the services that you and the rest of the country use. However there are lots and lots of very rich people who earn a lot more than you who don't think they want to pay for the services they use, never mind services that others use (think Cameron's multi millionaire daddy). And that's before we come onto corporations. They are literally stealing out of your pocket. And a lot more than so called benefit scroungers. Now if there was uproar everyday over all our media about this instead of benefit scroungers you would be furious about that instead.Yes you would still be annoyed at the benefit people, but you'd rightly and logically reserve your fury for the people who steal more from you. But it just so happens those very people run the media you consume.

It's a fair point Triz, you're right to question and perhaps my anger against these people clouds my better (or worse!) judgement.

[Ram59]

I think we can only easily compare like for like, these rich people and big corporations are on a different planet to us and we can't relate to them. Whereas, people who have had similar opportunities to ourselves, we can relate to and when we see them just take, take all the time, it's annoying. Tonight is my snooker night down the club and there is one guy there who openly flaunts his lifestyle against us mugs. If I say "I better get going, I've got to get up early for work tomorrow", he always replies that he's got to get early as well, at about 10.30, or maybe not. Then occasionally he'll come in a say that he was sent for a job interview, 'bloody cheek', he made sure he didn't get the job. He'll have his usual 5 or 6 pints, after being to another club beforehand and he's out most nights of the week.

[ramAnag]

I think we can only easily compare like for like, these rich people and big corporations are on a different planet to us and we can't relate to them. Whereas, people who have had similar opportunities to ourselves, we can relate to and when we see them just take, take all the time, it's annoying. Tonight is my snooker night down the club and there is one guy there who openly flaunts his lifestyle against us mugs. If I say "I better get going, I've got to get up early for work tomorrow", he always replies that he's got to get early as well, at about 10.30, or maybe not. Then occasionally he'll come in a say that he was sent for a job interview, 'bloody cheek', he made sure he didn't get the job. He'll have his usual 5 or 6 pints, after being to another club beforehand and he's out most nights of the week.

Understand your annoyance completely Ram59, but as your anecdote reveals you're not actually comparing 'like with like', you're comparing yourself with a skiver simply because you happen to inhabit the same environment on occasions. You - presumably - may not often share the same circles as the rich and famous, you may not be as familiar with their lifestyles but surely that is no excuse to ignore the swindlers amongst them who actually cost society far more than those regularly exposed in certain newspapers or programmes such as 'Benefits Street'. Think Triz is 100% right on this one.

[Trickytreesreds]

Understand your annoyance completely Ram59, but as your anecdote reveals you're not actually comparing 'like with like', you're comparing yourself with a skiver simply because you happen to inhabit the same environment on occasions. You - presumably - may not often share the same circles as the rich and famous, you may not be as familiar with their lifestyles but surely that is no excuse to ignore the swindlers amongst them who actually cost society far more than those regularly exposed in certain newspapers or programmes such as 'Benefits Street'. Think Triz is 100% right on this one.

He is right ramanag. I get that.
But they keep quiet and don't mock in our faces. To have someone on the same rung of the ladder doing it, riles you.
I despise them all and come the revolution, they're up against the wall and bop bop bop

[ramAnag]

He is right ramanag. I get that.
But they keep quiet and don't mock in our faces. To have someone on the same rung of the ladder doing it, riles you.
I despise them all and come the revolution, they're up against the wall and bop bop bop

You really are the oddest combination of Nigel Farage and Wolfie Smith aren't you Tricky? 'They keep quiet and don't mock in our faces', oh well that's alright then...actually they are much worse and the 'can pay, won't pay' mentality is infinitely more subversive in terms of the well being of society.

[Trickytreesreds]

You really are the oddest combination of Nigel Farage and Wolfie Smith aren't you Tricky? 'They keep quiet and don't mock in our faces', oh well that's alright then...actually they are much worse and the 'can pay, won't pay' mentality is infinitely more subversive in terms of the well being of society.

Not really ramanag, put me face to face with one of them and I'll rip them a new arse hole. That's the problem, my voice is doing nothing about this.
The suits in Parliament need to sort that out. And quite rightly.
My objection is when I see it in front of me from someone on my ladder

[ramAnag]

Not really ramanag, put me face to face with one of them and I'll rip them a new arse hole. That's the problem, my voice is doing nothing about this.
The suits in Parliament need to sort that out. And quite rightly.
My objection is when I see it in front of me from someone on my ladder

Maybe you need to read post 1820 again.
'We need to direct our anger at the right people...if enough people get angry stuff can get done'.
Isn't that what you claimed Brexit was all about? Even you and I are on the same side on this one...well sort of.

[Trickytreesreds]

Maybe you need to read post 1820 again.
'We need to direct our anger at the right people...if enough people get angry stuff can get done'.
Isn't that what you claimed Brexit was all about? Even you and I are on the same side on this one...well sort of.

Complained to my MP many times. But seeing as he was a Tory (farmer remainer) we all know where his loyalties lye lol

[Andy_Faber]

Understand your annoyance completely Ram59, but as your anecdote reveals you're not actually comparing 'like with like', you're comparing yourself with a skiver simply because you happen to inhabit the same environment on occasions. You - presumably - may not often share the same circles as the rich and famous, you may not be as familiar with their lifestyles but surely that is no excuse to ignore the swindlers amongst them who actually cost society far more than those regularly exposed in certain newspapers or programmes such as 'Benefits Street'. Think Triz is 100% right on this one.

I disagree about the relative costs to society, and its simple maths. Sorry to use an anecdote.

Take 200 skivers. Costs to 'the country' per year, lets say £50,000 each. Multiply by 200, £10m cost to 'the country'

the next bit's the anecdote

I know, vaguely, one high net worth individual. He made his fortune in car dealing and motorsport and now has a desk worth more than my house. I'm vaguely mates with his gofer/flunky/wingman, who is a qualified tax accountant, and although he doesn't do that job for the HNW, is fully aware that the HNW employs people specifically to 'minimise' his personal and corporate tax liability, and he (legally) pays a lot less than if he just threw his numbers onto his self assessment form on 30th January, its fair to say. Let's say his investment in minimising tax 'costs' 'the country' £10m.

So looking at the debit side it's level pegging

Lets look at contribution.

Skivers - nil.

HNW - He remains resident in UK for tax purposes I believe, so I guess will still pay a lot of UK tax. His company/companies accounts (last time I looked) declare tens of millions of tax liability. As an end-user of lots of products and services, his company shells out tens of millions more in VAT. His company, which wouldn't be there but for him as he started from zero, employs 300 people in UK, think of the PAYE and NIC coming from that. His company keeps a quite extensive supply chain going. He also runs a very generous apprenticeship scheme, gives time as well as money to charitable causes and uses his influence to persuade other slightly less well-heeled folk to do the same. By the way I'm not licking his **** here, he has a reputation as being a real ******* in business, although on the few occasions I've met him he's been very friendly and his secretary always provides little Danish pastries at meetings. And the bottom line is I'm guessing just in tax take he generates tens of millions of income for 'the country'

Anyway, back to the point, and I can only reel off this one anecdotal comparison, I'm sorry but the pragmatist in me says I can live with the actions of the HNW guy, but not the skivers, just on the maths of it. Both the HNW and the skivers have their hands in the till, but its actually the HNW guy who filled the till up in the first place.

NOTE: The above isn't about corporate crims, they should be brought to justice the same as anyone else.

[Ram59]

Understand your annoyance completely Ram59, but as your anecdote reveals you're not actually comparing 'like with like', you're comparing yourself with a skiver simply because you happen to inhabit the same environment on occasions. You - presumably - may not often share the same circles as the rich and famous, you may not be as familiar with their lifestyles but surely that is no excuse to ignore the swindlers amongst them who actually cost society far more than those regularly exposed in certain newspapers or programmes such as 'Benefits Street'. Think Triz is 100% right on this one.

I don't think it's a case of ignoring the bigger cases, which are constantly exposed in the papers I read. But you can't avoid it at the local level when it's thrown in your face all of the time, BTW he told us last night that he's off to book a holiday for April today, 'only Benidorm' in his words.