OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

I don't think we do have only slightly different perspectives but if its become the Swale and Faber show I'll back off and change my style.

That's not what I meant...but there is an unfortunate tendency amongst the more idealistic to recognise 'racism' in any one prepared to ask uncomfortable questions which is, imo, entirely counterproductive.
Your comment about the area you travel to being 'rammed with British racists' is interesting. I think we visit a similar area of southern Spain - I'm not due there again till September - but on the morning after Brexit, wandering around the streets where the cafes were stuffed with gloating Sun readers was a truly uncomfortable experience.

[Andy_Faber]

That's not what I meant...but there is an unfortunate tendency amongst the more idealistic to recognise 'racism' in any one prepared to ask uncomfortable questions which is, imo, entirely counterproductive.
Your comment about the area you travel to being 'rammed with British racists' is interesting. I think we visit a similar area of southern Spain - I'm not due there again till September - but on the morning after Brexit, wandering around the streets where the cafes were stuffed with gloating Sun readers was a truly uncomfortable experience.

Yes its Spain, and spending time amongst the ex-pat community is actually a good advert for racial segregation, for the sake of the Spanish!

But on your first point, yes the 'That's RACIST' mantra is frustrating when trying to have a sensible discussion.

[ramAnag]

Yes its Spain, and spending time amongst the ex-pat community is actually a good advert for racial segregation, for the sake of the Spanish!

But on your first point, yes the 'That's RACIST' mantra is frustrating when trying to have a sensible discussion.

Agreed...I try and avoid them.

[swaledale]

....except as usual they aren't facts they are your opinions dressed as facts.

In an earlier comment, Ramanag said 'At the risk of being anecdotal, I have a very close family member who teaches a class of 36 with a spread of over a dozen different first languages. Even with thirty years of teaching experience behind me, I genuinely don't know how that is possible'. That's a great example which even your political bias can't smooth away, but I'd welcome hearing you try. I choose that one because with my kids too old for school I genuinely have no connection with it other than the taxes I pay

As usual you prefer anecdotal "evidence" to actual evidence which is why you dismiss the points I made, actually what I post is based on research and reality and you are actually the one make broad sweeping comments based on your views with no concrete evidence to back it up! I do fear for the pupils you taught poor buggers most likely working down Maccie D's now.

i note you fail to comment that my 50% of eu migrants return home statement was proven with two separate FACTS! a proposition against which you made a similar dismissive claim! Your shrill cry of 2 million immigrants was a wee bit false as well when one looks at the FACTS!

I'm not even going to try smoothing the problems inner city multi racial populations pose - but what the **** has that got to do with controlling immigration through Brexit and controlling free movement of people? As Anag says there is a connection between postwar immigration and the EU debate but they are different strands of the issue and lumping together as the same porblem is a smokescreen..

What you call political bias is trying to debate the matter with reference to what the FACTS are, rather than perceptions which is what you are very fond of referring to as being important!

If you make incorrect and unsubstantiated statements, then expect them to be rebutted!

[Trickytreesreds]

I have been watching this with interest.

Ramanag puts over some good points, whilst Swale sticks to his, the world is wrong and I am right attitude.

Lets just for one second consider this.
Is the UK flooded by immigration, that overloads housing/services/medical? I think that's a yes. Is that the governments fault? Well at the current levels of net migration, I don't believe it is. Yes migrants are needed, but an open door policy? Please, be real.
Blair and his ilk have ruined that.

Folks had had enough. Swale living in the sticks may not think so. But it is obvious we have a problem.
How can we keep absorbing 350 000 people a year and not suffer for it.
Before the usual clap trap kicks off, that migrants contribute. Then in the early times, they don't.]
This has to be managed.
Yes we need migrants, but migrants invited in. Their skills identified and directed to where they are needed.
This soft attitude of being nice and complying has to stop.
Swae will hate me for saying it, but for ****s sake grow up and grow a pair,

[Andy_Faber]

I do fear for the pupils you taught poor buggers most likely working down Maccie D's now.

I've been accused of a lot of **** in my time but never before of being a teacher. The gloves are off now pal.

Note for Ramanag, only joshing! Remember my earlier commitment to change my style.

[ramAnag]

I have been watching this with interest.

Ramanag puts over some good points, whilst Swale sticks to his, the world is wrong and I am right attitude.

Lets just for one second consider this.
Is the UK flooded by immigration, that overloads housing/services/medical? I think that's a yes. Is that the governments fault? Well at the current levels of net migration, I don't believe it is. Yes migrants are needed, but an open door policy? Please, be real.
Blair and his ilk have ruined that.

Folks had had enough. Swale living in the sticks may not think so. But it is obvious we have a problem.
How can we keep absorbing 350 000 people a year and not suffer for it.
Before the usual clap trap kicks off, that migrants contribute. Then in the early times, they don't.]
This has to be managed.
Yes we need migrants, but migrants invited in. Their skills identified and directed to where they are needed.
This soft attitude of being nice and complying has to stop.
Swae will hate me for saying it, but for ****s sake grow up and grow a pair,

And therein lies the problem Tricky. You only say I've 'put over some good points' because you perceive me disagreeing with Swale and want to play 'divide and rule'.
You actually need to look at the statistics he put up earlier.
AF, Swale and I have differences...we probably represent the 'left' of the Tory party through to the centre left of the Labour Party, if you want to define things along party lines, but there is also a great deal of common ground.
You on the other hand probably embrace the views of Enoch Powell and Farage which are generally as facile and unhelpful as your closing comment.

[Andy_Faber]

As usual you prefer anecdotal "evidence" to actual evidence which is why you dismiss the points I made, actually what I post is based on research and reality and you are actually the one make broad sweeping comments based on your views with no concrete evidence to back it up! I do fear for the pupils you taught poor buggers most likely working down Maccie D's now.

i note you fail to comment that my 50% of eu migrants return home statement was proven with two separate FACTS! a proposition against which you made a similar dismissive claim! Your shrill cry of 2 million immigrants was a wee bit false as well when one looks at the FACTS!

I'm not the type to go back through a thousand previous posts, but I think you'll find that my comment (maybe over a couple of posts) was that a million increase in the population every two years was 'bonkers' and unsustainable. The discussion then turned to the pressure being brought to bear by immigration, I'm sure even you wouldn't advocate euthenasia as a way of easing the pressure on social services in an 'open-border' environment. sorry I don't recognise the '2 million immigrants' thing, happy ,as ever, to be proved wrong.

I think the debate is helped by a combination of raw numbers and anecdotes, I have a million anecdotes but try to be sparing with them, and ironically the one I used was nicked from Ramanag. I will say though that his observation is one that runs like a sore through the place I work, with all employees with school-age children appearing to be affected by it. I'd still welcome your view on that issue, fire away while I nip to the pub with my Chinese immigrant and first generation Brit Seihk workmates

[Trickytreesreds]

And therein lies the problem Tricky. You only say I've 'put over some good points' because you perceive me disagreeing with Swale and want to play 'divide and rule'.
You actually need to look at the statistics he put up earlier.
AF, Swale and I have differences...we probably represent the 'left' of the Tory party through to the centre left of the Labour Party, if you want to define things along party lines, but there is also a great deal of common ground.
You on the other hand probably embrace the views of Enoch Powell and Farage which are generally as facile and unhelpful as your closing comment.

Ok Ramanag, what has Farage said wrong?

He called for controlled migration, not an open door policy?
At the moment there is no way to stop anyone from the EU walking in and doing what they like?
From sleeping in Hyde park, to claiming for their "kids". Nothing to stop a back log for bottom tier jobs that our youth should be doing, to get their asses into gear, rather than stifling wages.
You only have to look around the Med for an example of this.
If the NHS needs workers, fine. Invite them in. If builders need brick layers fine, invite them in. If Norfolk needs strawberry pickers, fine invite them in.

But numbers have to be controlled.
I'll give you an example of the load on our services shall I? I have been waiting for a cancer op for 4 months. I asked why and the doctor told me himself, it's because we are so over loaded. Our influx through the door has gone through the roof.
I asked him to his face, migration? He looked at the ceiling and said"it's a problem"

I respected his honesty, so please don't play it down. I know you are going to blame the government for lack of money, but we wasn't ready for this.
The EU caused it, sending waves across Europe in search of money and to escape unemployment.
I don't blame them, I blame our weak governments for their Liberal, spineless, appeasement.

[Ram59]

Let us look at the immigration figures in another way, several on here claim they pay their way.

First of all we all agree that our services are at breaking point with no spare capacity. Now let us consider that net immigration Is greater than the population of Derby each year.

Can the people of Derby pay their way to run the city, probably yes. But for this year's immigrants their isn't an empty city of Derby waiting to be filled, no, there needs a new one to be built with houses, schools, medical facilities, roads etc, etc.

Could the people of Derby or immigrants pay to build a new city each year? Not a bloody chance.

We are using immigrants to do work that our population can't or won't do, which is ultimately the failure of successive governments.

Each year we fill a city of Derby's size with immigrants which do jobs that we should be doing and create jobs that we're prepared and able to do. But this comes at heavy price, an increasing strain on our services and space on this small island.

Finally, what is the damage we are doing to the countries from which the immigrants arrive? Can they afford to train doctors and nurses, only to see them clear off to Britain, can they afford to have food rotting in fields because their pickers are over here? Is that really fair?

[Andy_Faber]

As we all seem so bloody interested in the way the UK works, might be worth having a nose at this, some fascinating reading

http://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/

[Ram59]

The latest UK population statistics published a few days ago now put the figure at 65.6 million. This is an increase of 5.6 million in 11 years and is not sustainable.

It's not all down to EU'immigration but we need to have as many controls as possible to slow this growth down.

We are The most densely populated major economy in the EU'.

[Trickytreesreds]

The latest UK population statistics published a few days ago now put the figure at 65.6 million. This is an increase of 5.6 million in 11 years and is not sustainable.

It's not all down to EU'immigration but we need to have as many controls as possible to slow this growth down.

We are The most densely populated major economy in the EU'.

Yep, but if you live in the sticks of Derbyshire, it doesn't matter because it doesn't effect me. :-/

The current influx levels, can not be maintained. Anyone with a brain cell can see that.
It is bad for us and bad for the countries they come from. The EU has destroyed young employment and its answer is migration.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/266228/youth-unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/

The policy has also fueled, non EU migration trying to capitalise on the movement.
At the moment( forget Syria), half of Africa is trying to get in. What does the EU do?
Provides a ferry service.
This isn't going to end well.

[Trickytreesreds]

As we all seem so bloody interested in the way the UK works, might be worth having a nose at this, some fascinating reading

http://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/

Ireland/Poland/Hungary/Portugal less worried about migrants? I wonder why

[ramAnag]

Ok Ramanag, what has Farage said wrong?

He called for controlled migration, not an open door policy?
At the moment there is no way to stop anyone from the EU walking in and doing what they like?
From sleeping in Hyde park, to claiming for their "kids". Nothing to stop a back log for bottom tier jobs that our youth should be doing, to get their asses into gear, rather than stifling wages.
You only have to look around the Med for an example of this.
If the NHS needs workers, fine. Invite them in. If builders need brick layers fine, invite them in. If Norfolk needs strawberry pickers, fine invite them in.

But numbers have to be controlled.
I'll give you an example of the load on our services shall I? I have been waiting for a cancer op for 4 months. I asked why and the doctor told me himself, it's because we are so over loaded. Our influx through the door has gone through the roof.
I asked him to his face, migration? He looked at the ceiling and said"it's a problem"

I respected his honesty, so please don't play it down. I know you are going to blame the government for lack of money, but we wasn't ready for this.
The EU caused it, sending waves across Europe in search of money and to escape unemployment.
I don't blame them, I blame our weak governments for their Liberal, spineless, appeasement.

Tricky...firstly, I'm genuinely sorry you need the 'op' you describe. We disagree on most things but I wish you no harm.
Someone as close as it gets to me needed similar treatment a few years ago. I visited the hospital twice each day for seventeen consecutive days and it was obvious there was a problem in terms of bed availability but it was 'caused' by old people - who were, depressingly, happier to be cared for over winter in hospital than to return home - even though they no longer had any medical needs.
I didn't blame them then and I don't think it's down to migration in your case. You will recall that I have agreed there is an issue with immigration and the way it is managed but to keep laying everything at the door of immigrants in the way you, Ram59 and Farage - with his totally bogus photos - do is, imo, just wrong. Try cuts, austerity, and the gross disparity in wealth distribution if you want an alternative cause. Also remember that, prior to the financial 'crash', successive Blair governments had overseen huge investment in the NHS - new and much improved hospital facilities in Derby and Ashbourne are just two of many examples. Perhaps those greedy and corrupt bankers who caused the 'crash' might be more obvious culprits.
Hope you soon get the treatment you need and enjoy a full recovery.