OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[MadAmster]

The cause of the problem is the question asked at the referendum. It was a digital choice, in or out. 52% of those who voted, voted out. So, the UK is leaving the EU.

What the dumbass Tories have failed to do since then is decide what they see as the best form of Brexit for the UK and then go for it, knowing full well that there would have to be give and take on both sides, as there is in all negotiations. Both sides set their stall out and then compromise towards a settlement both can live with. Because the government doesn't know what they want, they are in a very weak position as they have no bargaining chips.

As it stands I can see but 3 possible outcomes of it all.

1. We leave on terms set by the EU Commission which will mean we have what we have always had, pay billions for the privilege and also lose any say in future EU Laws but still have to abide by them.

2. We stay in on exactly the same terms as we have now but have wasted 2 years during which time we have been excluded from some EU decision making because we were leaving

3. No deal. No big payout to the EU. We simply leave and start trading with the rest of the world as well as the EU under the WTO tariff system.

[ramAnag]

The cause of the problem is the question asked at the referendum. It was a digital choice, in or out. 52% of those who voted, voted out. So, the UK is leaving the EU.

What the dumbass Tories have failed to do since then is decide what they see as the best form of Brexit for the UK and then go for it, knowing full well that there would have to be give and take on both sides, as there is in all negotiations. Both sides set their stall out and then compromise towards a settlement both can live with. Because the government doesn't know what they want, they are in a very weak position as they have no bargaining chips.

As it stands I can see but 3 possible outcomes of it all.

1. We leave on terms set by the EU Commission which will mean we have what we have always had, pay billions for the privilege and also lose any say in future EU Laws but still have to abide by them.

2. We stay in on exactly the same terms as we have now but have wasted 2 years during which time we have been excluded from some EU decision making because we were leaving

3. No deal. No big payout to the EU. We simply leave and start trading with the rest of the world as well as the EU under the WTO tariff system.

But, and I know I’m being repetitive, only 37% of the actual electorate voted for this MA so in no way is it the ‘will of the people’.
They didn’t know then and they don’t know now what they were voting for so the only rational way forward is to have everything clearly mapped out and then put it to a Parliamentary vote.

[Andy_Faber]

But, and I know I’m being repetitive, only 37% of the actual electorate voted for this MA so in no way is it the ‘will of the people’.
They didn’t know then and they don’t know now what they were voting for so the only rational way forward is to have everything clearly mapped out and then put it to a Parliamentary vote.

I think you know though that you are wasting your breath (or risking RSI on your keyboard tapping finger) on this, if you feel so strongly about it you should have abstained - I know you are well-informed enough to have realised when you walked into that polling booth that NEITHER option was going to earn over 50% of the vote, so isn't it hypocritical to be prepared to accept/celebrate a 37% Remain vote but not a 37% leave one?

Yes you are being repetative, but worse than that you are being backward looking which is stealing the professional thunder and raison d'etre of the accountants such as Roger and I (well more so Roger)

[mistaram]

ramAnag of course you are right only 37% of those eligible to vote voted leave. But 27.9%of eligible voters decided not to vote at all So we can only speculate which way they would have voted Now you can saay as often as you like we didn't know what we were voting for and we probably still don't know But we live in a democracy where for hundreds of years we have been subjected to the notion " If you don't participate your voice is not heard " So afraid you will have to take this one on the chin

[AdiSalisbury]

"only 37% of the actual electorate voted"
"only 37% of the actual electorate voted"
"only 37% of the actual electorate voted"
"only 37% of the actual electorate voted"
"only 37% of the actual electorate voted"
"only 37% of the actual electorate voted"
"only 37% of the actual electorate voted"
"only 37% of the actual electorate voted"
"only 37% of the actual electorate voted"
"only 37% of the actual electorate voted"
"only 37% of the actual electorate voted"
"only 37% of the actual electorate voted"
"only 37% of the actual electorate voted"

There you go RamAnag, that'll save your keyboard some wear and tear

[Romanis]

I just don't get why some mugs don't vote. They should go live in some totalitarian society where there's no vote on offer.

[AdiSalisbury]

I just don't get why some mugs don't vote. They should go live in some totalitarian society where there's no vote on offer.

If you don't have an opinion or standing on a matter, then you shouldn't vote IMO, as you are discrediting someone else's vote. We have the right to vote, and we have the right to abstain.

[Romanis]

Yes adis - vote abstain - spoilt vote, but exercise your right.

[ramAnag]

Yeah, yeah...I know it’s repetitive, but as someone recently claimed...’nothing has changed’...and until it does the argument remains the same.
There is a massive amount at stake here and the following facts can’t, in my opinion, be ignored.
1) The electorate were not presented with the facts...they were presented with lies and half truths.
2) The electorate are not sufficiently capable and were not sufficiently well informed to be able to reach a decision of this complexity.
3) The referendum took place in late June, this is a time when many people take their holidays in order to gain the joint benefits of decent weather and out of school holiday prices. With this in mind it was always likely that some people wouldn’t be able to vote without taking the necessary steps before they went on holiday.
4) Since the Referendum, which many complacently thought would be a ‘shoe in’ for ‘Remain’, the amount of anxiety and pessimism within the business/finance communities has been unprecedentedly high and these feelings need now to be taken notice of.
5) Much has been said about democracy and the voice of the people. I always believed that ‘democracy’ somehow equates to ‘majority rule’...the percentage of people who voted for Brexit is a very long way from ‘majority rule’ or the ‘voice of the people’.
6) Twenty odd months on, despite regularly being told...’Brexit means Brexit’ there is still no one in this country who can thruthfully say they know what ‘sort’ of Brexit we are heading for so how the hell could we vote for it twenty plus months ago?

Utterly tedious and repetitive I know and I apologise for that...I’m a stubborn sod and this really should matter to all of us.

As for Andy’s two points, I have to say they seem untypically ill thought through to me. I’m being anything but ‘backward looking’. I’m looking to the future, listening to those who are infinitely more knowledgeable than me and I see trouble in store for my children and grandchildren.
On the question of ‘hypocracy’. As it happens I didn’t enter any polling booth...I was on holiday and made the necessary arrangements...easy when you’re largely retired...not so easy for busy people in full employment, but I’m ‘celebrating’ nothing. I recognise that more people voted Leave than Remain, of course I do, but it would have been ridiculous for me to abstain and I simply cannot now recognise that what effectively became a protest vote, based on a tissue of lies and supported by just over a third of the electorate is the best way for this country to decide its future.

Sorry, I’ll try and shut up now.

[roger_ramjet]

Phew

[Romanis]

If I were PM, I'll move a Bill in Parliament scrapping Brexit.

As an offering to the Brexiters, while I would have to accept the open borders concept, I would put a caveat for everyone coming over - having to pass a 'security clearance.' This security clearance will be dragged on and on for those deemed unacceptable.
I'd strike deals with Hungary, Greece and Bulgaria, possibly Poland. The Uk will oppose any attempt to sanction them for their actions in return for their vote on any attempt by Brussels to force stuff on us.

The power of the veto.

[Romanis]

Phew

Tired after a run Roger?

You shouldn't do heavy strenuous stuff at your age and size, with a dicky heart and fat arse.

[Andy_Faber]

As for Andy’s two points, I have to say they seem untypically ill thought through to me. I’m being anything but ‘backward looking’. I’m looking to the future, listening to those who are infinitely more knowledgeable than me and I see trouble in store for my children and grandchildren.

On the question of ‘hypocracy’. As it happens I didn’t enter any polling booth...I was on holiday and made the necessary arrangements...easy when you’re largely retired...not so easy for busy people in full employment, but I’m ‘celebrating’ nothing. I recognise that more people voted Leave than Remain, of course I do, but it would have been ridiculous for me to abstain and I simply cannot now recognise that what effectively became a protest vote, based on a tissue of lies and supported by just over a third of the electorate is the best way for this country to decide its future.

Sorry, I’ll try and shut up now.

Ramanag, the first point was supposed to be a lighthearted aside, aimed more at we bean counters than you. Hey ho.

On the second point, I respect your stubborn stance, but my point is you wouldn't be calling for a rerun if remain had won with 37%. For my part, I came to terms with the decision about twenty to five on the 24th June when Dimbleby bashed his mug on the table and since then I've been an advocate for making the best job we can of the divorce and beyond.

[MadAmster]

Much has been said about democracy and the voice of the people. I always believed that ‘democracy’ somehow equates to ‘majority rule’...the percentage of people who voted for Brexit is a very long way from ‘majority rule’ or the ‘voice of the people’..

It means something close to that rA but, depending on the rules governing any particular vote, it varies.

It can mean more than 50% of those eligible to vote
It can mean more than 50% of those who actually bothered to vote as in the case of Brexit. The shock to me was how very few young people voted and now they are the largest group of complainers.
Other votes have to have >66% of those voting
etc etc etc

Things with the impact of the Brexit vote should have a larger requirement. It has brought about a huge, really huge, fundamental change and 48% of those who could be bothered to vote were against it. 63% of those eligible didn't vote for it and probably 60% of those eligible would have been against it had they bothered to vote.

It is majority rules but the parameters are always set down prior to voting. In this case there should have been a requirement for at least xx% turnout (66 or 75 or.......) and that at least 66% of those voting were in favour of the winning side, which turned out to be Brexit.

The result is 100% democratic according to the rules laid down for the referendum. 50% +1 of the votes cast takes the day.

Whichever side of the fence you are on, hopefully, we can all agree on it being, quite possibly, one in the eye for globalisation......

[roger_ramjet]

"1) The electorate were not presented with the facts...they were presented with lies and half truths.
2) The electorate are not sufficiently capable and were not sufficiently well informed to be able to reach a decision of this complexity.
3) The referendum took place in late June, this is a time when many people take their holidays in order to gain the joint benefits of decent weather and out of school holiday prices. With this in mind it was always likely that some people wouldn’t be able to vote without taking the necessary steps before they went on holiday.
4) Since the Referendum, which many complacently thought would be a ‘shoe in’ for ‘Remain’, the amount of anxiety and pessimism within the business/finance communities has been unprecedentedly high and these feelings need now to be taken notice of.
5) Much has been said about democracy and the voice of the people. I always believed that ‘democracy’ somehow equates to ‘majority rule’...the percentage of people who voted for Brexit is a very long way from ‘majority rule’ or the ‘voice of the people’.
6) Twenty odd months on, despite regularly being told...’Brexit means Brexit’ there is still no one in this country who can thruthfully say they know what ‘sort’ of Brexit we are heading for so how the hell could we vote for it twenty plus months ago?"

OK this is just bait in the trap isnt it. Firstly I agree with Andy - I voted remain but accepted the decision as I had (and still have) severe reservations about where the EU is heading vis a vis USE and the undemocratic way it is set up.

But to take the points one by one:

The electorate were not presented with the facts...they were presented with lies and half truths. This observation, with which I agree, applies equally to both sides of the debate and the accusation can no more be thrown at remainers as it can stayers. The losers simply are claiming that the winners told bigger lies and half truths. I do not believe that to be true.

The electorate are not sufficiently capable and were not sufficiently well informed to be able to reach a decision of this complexity. I agree and the who;le concept of a referendum was fatally flawed, ill defined and misunderstood. But why is this any worse for one side than the other?


The referendum took place in late June, this is a time when many people take their holidays.... this really is clutching at straws. In point of fact those that have the freedom to take holidays in June are most likely those without children and thus likely to be older. If one looks at the voting demographics it is the older people that were more proc leaving, so this would have hurt the leave vote more than the remain vote


Since the Referendum, which many complacently thought would be a ‘shoe in’ for ‘Remain’, the amount of anxiety and pessimism within the business/finance communities has been unprecedentedly high and these feelings need now to be taken notice of. Agreed that the remainers were complacent but that is not anyone's fault apart from remain suporters who couldn't be arsed to vote. You cannot have regard for that. As I recall a "wise" man on here once said that we (DCFC) Needed more complacency in order to succeed. But you cannot get a recount on the basis that "I didn't think my vote would matter" Those feelings do NOT now need to be taken into account. The game is over, you cannot backtrack.

Much has been said about democracy and the voice of the people. I always believed that ‘democracy’ somehow equates to ‘majority rule’...the percentage of people who voted for Brexit is a very long way from ‘majority rule’ or the ‘voice of the people’. Adi has addressed this above; the democratic right to vote was enabled for anyone of current voting age. Those that chose not to vote did so of their own free will and there is no right to presume that the one third who ducked out would have been representative of one faction or the other. Those who chose not to vote surrendered their right to representation - and note historically the young end of the spectrum are those that tend not to vote in elections, but in this case that trend was overturned. Thus a good argument could be raised that the disinterested were narrowly in favour of leave. If people will not speak, then the voice that is heard excludes them at their own cost.


Twenty odd months on, despite regularly being told...’Brexit means Brexit’ there is still no one in this country who can thruthfully say they know what ‘sort’ of Brexit we are heading for so how the hell could we vote for it twenty plus months ago? And your point is? We did vote, we may have got it right, we may have got it wrong (I sense you favour the latter perspective) but the fact remains we did. I dont remember you complaining about having to vote at the time - but I may be wrong.


Sorry these continuing gripes do sound like the bitter and twisted ramblings of someone who lost a game. I would expect it following Bobby Zamora's goal - we wuz robbed - but this is not quite the same.