OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

Simple really. The last referendum made a "decision" / choice that the government has been unable to enact (or at least it looks that way now). The option of no deal is repellent. The opposition have no viable alternative. The EU aren't going to concede more as they still want our contributions. So we cannot agree to leave on acceptable terms, and a no deal is unacceptable. There's nothing to vote on, we are twixt Rock and Hard Place so what's the point of referendum - what can it ask?

The last referendum didn’t ‘make a decision’. It provided advice...that a large proportion of the public were uncomfortable with the EU and immigration levels in particular.
Surely the Referendum questions now must be something along the lines of...in the light of what we now know...do you support...a) Mrs May’s deal. b) A no-deal ‘hard’ Brexit or c) Continued membership of the EU.
Should those be the choices I’m genuinely shocked that two people who’ve had as much to say on the subject as you and mista would choose not to vote especially when you are fully aware of how damaging option b would be.
Vote for the least damaging of the three...it’s what we do at every General Election anyway.

[mistaram]

RA they are the very reasons i wouldn't vote
By the way if we do have a second referendum should only be advisory again

[Andy_Faber]

The last referendum didn’t ‘make a decision’. It provided advice...that a large proportion of the public were uncomfortable with the EU and immigration levels in particular.
Surely the Referendum questions now must be something along the lines of...in the light of what we now know...do you support...a) Mrs May’s deal. b) A no-deal ‘hard’ Brexit or c) Continued membership of the EU.
Should those be the choices I’m genuinely shocked that two people who’ve had as much to say on the subject as you and mista would choose not to vote especially when you are fully aware of how damaging option b would be.
Vote for the least damaging of the three...it’s what we do at every General Election anyway.

Make that three, and that's after a lot of consideration, including soaking up all the views on this forum.

[ramAnag]

Make that three, and that's after a lot of consideration, including soaking up all the views on this forum.

That makes absolutely no sense to me at all. Not that big a surprise though from ‘stay...go...stay...not gonna say...Andy’.
Glad I’ve never had to bat with you.

If sensible folk don’t vote when they understand the consequences they’ll only have themselves to blame when the extremists have their way.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Yes those may be the three options, but can you honestly say hand on heart that you think any of the options would get a clear majority choice in favour? Hell, when it was a matter of just two choices you were not happy with Brexit garnering less than 50% of electorate. I can't see that a 3 way choice will do anything but cloud the issue still more.

Let's speculate on an outcome ( figures are %of those voting) : hard Brexit 20%, May deal 35%, remain after all 45%

Who wins? The biggest outcome was remain but that gets less votes than to leave. Its also less than 50% of those voting let alone of those eligible to vote.

See, waste of time.

[Geoff Parkstone]

I suspect you only favour it because it splits the Brexit vote thus leaving remain as the biggest minority opinion! So the people will give no clear mandate, parliament is hopelessly factionalised and politicised.

Maybe just toss a coin

[mistaram]

RA by the way I've not had much to say on the subject 16 posts out of 3,000

[ramAnag]

Yes those may be the three options, but can you honestly say hand on heart that you think any of the options would get a clear majority choice in favour? Hell, when it was a matter of just two choices you were not happy with Brexit garnering less than 50% of electorate. I can't see that a 3 way choice will do anything but cloud the issue still more.

Let's speculate on an outcome ( figures are %of those voting) : hard Brexit 20%, May deal 35%, remain after all 45%

Who wins? The biggest outcome was remain but that gets less votes than to leave. Its also less than 50% of those voting let alone of those eligible to vote.

See, waste of time.

Very fair points GP. I have laid no claim to knowing how to judge the outcome. Maybe you have to have some sort of transferable vote system.
Pretty sure that if people who’ve actually thought about this - i.e. you, mista and Andy - don’t vote after all this then that really is a waste of time though.

[Andy_Faber]

That makes absolutely no sense to me at all. Not that big a surprise though from ‘stay...go...stay...not gonna say...Andy’.
Glad I’ve never had to bat with you.

If sensible folk don’t vote when they understand the consequences they’ll only have themselves to blame when the extremists have their way.

So who are these consequences you talk so confidently of?

[ramAnag]

So who are these consequences you talk so confidently of?

Not sure confident is the word Andy but...the consequences of a no deal Brexit? Oh, little things like disruption and chaos surrounding trade, including food and medical supplies not least because of uncertainty over border processing times. An increased risk regarding the Irish situation over a ‘hard’ border. Disruption regarding legal and commercial contracts within the EU and the invalidation of European health insurance cards from the moment ‘Brexit Day’ arrives. If that’s not enough for you...the obvious risk to jobs and yet more of a hit on our already bruised and battered no longer so precious £.
Don’t know about you but all that scares the wotsit out of me...and voting against it may yet be the only way to avoid such a catastrophe.

[MadAmster]

William Hill now offering odds of 1/8 on there being a 2nd referendum. 4 weeks ago that was 12/1.

They view a new referendum 96 times more likely now than a month ago. Don't bet against the bookies...........

It looks like Mayhem will lose the vote in Parliament. Should that happen then she has, IMO, 2 choices left. A no deal Brexit or revoking Article 50 and staying in the EU on current terms.. Who makes that choice? Parliament or the people via a referendum? The bookies believe referendum.

The whole shambles? More people voted Leave than voted Remain. Leave was set in "motion". Through procrastination, General Election, posturing and dilly dallying, time went by and by and by and there were no meaningful negotiations. Right at the death, the Tories came up with a botched deal that would leave the UK in limbo, possibly permanently so in which no change to CAP, ditto CFP, ditto Customs Union, ditto freedom of movement, ditto adherence to EU Law but with no say in the content of those Laws. Benefits? No annual "membership" fee.

IMO, all of the above shows that "they" were shocked at the outcome of the refendum and have pulled out all the stops to ensure that any breakaway was as close as possible to membership conditions. Politicians happy, EU happy, Remainers not completely unhappy and Leavers very angry.

Every referendum in the EU thus far has gone against the government holding it. They have all gone against the result of the referendum. No surprise then at what looks the most likely outcome of the Brexit referendum.

[ramAnag]

William Hill now offering odds of 1/8 on there being a 2nd referendum. 4 weeks ago that was 12/1.

They view a new referendum 96 times more likely now than a month ago. Don't bet against the bookies...........

It looks like Mayhem will lose the vote in Parliament. Should that happen then she has, IMO, 2 choices left. A no deal Brexit or revoking Article 50 and staying in the EU on current terms.. Who makes that choice? Parliament or the people via a referendum? The bookies believe referendum.

The whole shambles? More people voted Leave than voted Remain. Leave was set in "motion". Through procrastination, General Election, posturing and dilly dallying, time went by and by and by and there were no meaningful negotiations. Right at the death, the Tories came up with a botched deal that would leave the UK in limbo, possibly permanently so in which no change to CAP, ditto CFP, ditto Customs Union, ditto freedom of movement, ditto adherence to EU Law but with no say in the content of those Laws. Benefits? No annual "membership" fee.

IMO, all of the above shows that "they" were shocked at the outcome of the refendum and have pulled out all the stops to ensure that any breakaway was as close as possible to membership conditions. Politicians happy, EU happy, Remainers not completely unhappy and Leavers very angry.

Every referendum in the EU thus far has gone against the government holding it. They have all gone against the result of the referendum. No surprise then at what looks the most likely outcome of the Brexit referendum.

A few ‘more people voted Leave than voted Remain’, MA...but many more people didn’t vote ‘Leave’ than actually did.
Beyond that clarification I think your last two posts have made perfect sense...change from within, and if there was ever any doubt that the EU want us then that at least should have been dispelled over the last two and a half years.
Pity you’re in Holland...maybe AF or GP will gift you their vote seeing as they intend to waste it.

[mistaram]

MA you can also have my vote I don't intend to keep voting till they get the result they want

[MadAmster]

A few ‘more people (1.5 million more?) voted Leave than voted Remain’, MA...but many more people didn’t vote ‘Remain’ than actually did.

.... on that we can agree rA

My own view is still that I despise the EU, want no part of a US of E, want to ban lobby groups, Unions, businesses and individuals donating huge amounts to parties to ensure they get what they want. Membership fees set at a low and sensible level is fine. The rest of the funding should come from the Exchequer and be paid for by all. I want no part of globalisation. Curtail the banks, stop multinationals and the very rich being able to avoid proper taxes etc etc etc........ That has to be done from within at an international level. A single country would be bankrupt in a heartbeat if they pursued all of these ideas........ it has to be a collective action.

[Geoff Parkstone]

A few ‘more people voted Leave than voted Remain’, MA...but many more people didn’t vote ‘Leave’ than actually did.
Beyond that clarification I think your last two posts have made perfect sense...change from within, and if there was ever any doubt that the EU want us then that at least should have been dispelled over the last two and a half years.
Pity you’re in Holland...maybe AF or GP will gift you their vote seeing as they intend to waste it.

I don't think I'm wasting it just expressing the view that referendum #2 is a waste of time and effort.

Consider this: remainders are so confident that they will win referendum #1 that they receive a shock when they don't. But remainders still head the party in power after the change in leadership. What can they do to ensure it won't happen while giving the appearance of doing what the referendum says to do?

Waste time and get a bum deal that satisfies noone. So they go thru the motions, call an election for no reason to delay things further, but with the benefit of reducing its majority making it impossible to push the Brexit legislation through.

Then all that is needed is to " negotiate badly" and get a deal that is remain in all but name. Bring that back to the country too late for any renegotiation. Advance the spectre of no deal as the only option which none but the hardcore want. Then maybe let's waste time by having another meaningless referendum.

Thus the remainer leader in the guise of "negotiating in good faith" can present a "no choice but to stay" solution having pretended to be trying to leave. No doubt the EU have been complicit in the mirage too, helping delay things and conceding nothing. Conspiracy theory, maybe. But this whole fiasco was probably dreamed up and planned for before Article 50 was even revoked.

The people have been played like a fish on the end of a line by the politicians who by and large didn't want to leave. A weak Labour leader went along with it by lacking any decisiveness and never publically aligning with the leave vote, allowing the Conservative remain majority to complete the fabrication.

rA, you should be kissing May's arse for getting what you wanted all along by stealth, not relying on Joe public to change their minds