OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[swaledale]

Yes I can suggest it wasn't foolish and ignorant. It wasn't ignorant because being ignorant is 'lacking knowledge or awareness' and the folk I've listened to (and I'll say again, I get around a bit so it's a lot) were in full awareness that the vote wasn't directly about non-EU Immigration, just as they were in full awareness that the vote wasn't even meant to be soleley/mainly about inter-EU immigration. I would argue that it was those who initiated the vote in the hope that it would put the EU question 'to bed' for good were the ignorant ones, lacking knowledge or awareness of the mood of the folk who put them in their position of power. Whether it proves to be foolish is for history to decide, and I'd suggest that anyone who has already decided that they can read the future on this is suffering from another great vice, arrogance. I'm prepared to wait and see, and revisit their foolishness or otherwise.

When I speak to people who are by all accounts intelligent - middle class middle income professionals who give their reasons for voting leave I am usually lost for words by the ignorance they demonstrate, that and their naivety!

[ramAnag]

Hiu

Yes I can suggest it wasn't foolish and ignorant. It wasn't ignorant because being ignorant is 'lacking knowledge or awareness' and the folk I've listened to (and I'll say again, I get around a bit so it's a lot) were in full awareness that the vote wasn't directly about non-EU Immigration, just as they were in full awareness that the vote wasn't even meant to be soleley/mainly about inter-EU immigration. I would argue that it was those who initiated the vote in the hope that it would put the EU question 'to bed' for good were the ignorant ones, lacking knowledge or awareness of the mood of the folk who put them in their position of power. Whether it proves to be foolish is for history to decide, and I'd suggest that anyone who has already decided that they can read the future on this is suffering from another great vice, arrogance. I'm prepared to wait and see, and revisit their foolishness or otherwise.

Andy, I completely accept that those in power, on both sides of the political divide, are ignorant of the plight of the ‘left behinds’ and also that the Remain campaign was epitomised by half arsed complacency.
It is though, still utterly ridiculous to suggest that those who voted ‘Leave’, on the issue of non EU immigration, weren’t displaying ignorance and foolishness. The two have nothing to do with each other. It was, under such circumstances a ‘protest vote’ as I have suggested before and you have always denied.

[Andy_Faber]

Andy, I completely accept that those in power, on both sides of the political divide, are ignorant of the plight of the ‘left behinds’ and also that the Remain campaign was epitomised by half arsed complacency.
It is though, still utterly ridiculous to suggest that those who voted ‘Leave’, on the issue of non EU immigration, weren’t displaying ignorance and foolishness. The two have nothing to do with each other. It was, under such circumstances a ‘protest vote’ as I have suggested before and you have always denied.

We must have missed a few of each others’ many rants, absolutely it was a protest vote

[ramAnag]

We must have missed a few of each others’ many rants, absolutely it was a protest vote

Not got time to trawl through till I find where you questioned me saying that Brexit was largely a protest vote. It does add to the absurdity of it all though...the fact that you now accept that something you personally voted against (Brexit) and then sought to protect you now accept was little more than the result of a ‘protest vote’.
That’s okay then is it...our country arguably taking its most serious - and potentially damaging - decision on the back of a protest vote much of which is concerned with something the EU has nothing at all to do with?

[Andy_Faber]

Not got time to trawl through till I find where you questioned me saying that Brexit was largely a protest vote. It does add to the absurdity of it all though...the fact that you now accept that something you personally voted against (Brexit) and then sought to protect you now accept was little more than the result of a ‘protest vote’.
That’s okay then is it...our country arguably taking its most serious - and potentially damaging - decision on the back of a protest vote much of which is concerned with something the EU has nothing at all to do with?

RA, you're confusing observation with support. I'm exploring the root cause/reasons behind what's happened, not beating the the drum for those reasons. And i believe a protest vote is a valid vote. Certainly more than not voting

[ramAnag]

RA, you're confusing observation with support. I'm exploring the root cause/reasons behind what's happened, not beating the the drum for those reasons. And i believe a protest vote is a valid vote. Certainly more than not voting

Not if you vote on the basis of something which is totally irrelevant to the Referendum it isn’t...it’s just patently ridiculous whereas some of those who didn’t vote may have chosen not to do so because they genuinely didn’t believe they were sufficiently well informed.
Voting ‘Leave’ on the basis of opposition to non EU immigration is completely nonsensical.

[Andy_Faber]

Not if you vote on the basis of something which is totally irrelevant to the Referendum it isn’t...it’s just patently ridiculous whereas some of those who didn’t vote may have chosen not to do so because they genuinely didn’t believe they were sufficiently well informed.
Voting ‘Leave’ on the basis of opposition to non EU immigration is completely nonsensical.

We'll have to agree to differ, lets move on. The whole Brexit farce was crystalised a few minutes ago on Newsnight with a dozen folk shouting across each other about Brexit and no-one in control (or rather Emily Maitless, which is the same thing)

[ramAnag]

We'll have to agree to differ, lets move on. The whole Brexit farce was crystalised a few minutes ago on Newsnight with a dozen folk shouting across each other about Brexit and no-one in control (or rather Emily Maitless, which is the same thing)

Happy to move on Andy, but honestly...when you speak of the crystallisation of the Brexit farce it surely can’t be any more absurd than people voting for Brexit on the basis of objections to non EU immigration. Makes about as much sense as refusing a night out at an Italian Ristorante because you once had a dodgy masala at the local Taj Mahal.

[swaledale]

Happy to move on Andy, but honestly...when you speak of the crystallisation of the Brexit farce it surely can’t be any more absurd than people voting for Brexit on the basis of objections to non EU immigration. Makes about as much sense as refusing a night out at an Italian Ristorante because you once had a dodgy masala at the local Taj Mahal.

Its a huge simplification to say the Brexit vote was purely against non eu immigration, the the 37% who voted did so on the basis of

stop non eu immigration

stop all immigration

take the Uk back to the "golden years" of the 1940's and 50's (or even pre war when we were a world power) ignoring the fact the world's chnaged a bit since then!

Believed that £350 million would go to the NHS instead of to the EU

don't like the idea that the UK is better off working together with other nations economically and would rather we had "control" over everything (no matter how illusory that control actually is) and be an isolationist nation even if that means being worse off.

Completely pissed off with austerity, didn't like Cameron and voted in protest against anything he was in favour of

Completely ****ing bonkers and didn't have a clue why they were voting

Anyone like to put %'s against each category or even add one I haven't included?


Anyway the likelihood of a referendum on the deal is increasing every day! Sow e may not commit economic hari kari after all.

[AdiSalisbury]

People voted Remain because:

Their Facebook friend said so.

They think that they would be deported because their Grandad came from abroad.

They think that Europe and EU are the same thing.

They think that it is an anti-racism vote.

They think that trade with EU members would stop.

They think that, despite globalisation, we will be "isolated".

They think that anyone voting leave are "little Englanders"

They think that the EU has better employment rights that they'd lose.

...I could go on.

It's easy to pick out ignorant reasons for people to vote how they did, but democracy gives everyone that right. You can't just imply ignorance on one side, it is both sides.

[Andy_Faber]

People voted Remain because:

Their Facebook friend said so.

They think that they would be deported because their Grandad came from abroad.

They think that Europe and EU are the same thing.

They think that it is an anti-racism vote.

They think that trade with EU members would stop.

They think that, despite globalisation, we will be "isolated".

They think that anyone voting leave are "little Englanders"

They think that the EU has better employment rights that they'd lose.

...I could go on.

It's easy to pick out ignorant reasons for people to vote how they did, but democracy gives everyone that right. You can't just imply ignorance on one side, it is both sides.

Too subtle if you are trying to draw a response from The Kraken

[ramAnag]

People voted Remain because:

Their Facebook friend said so.

They think that they would be deported because their Grandad came from abroad.

They think that Europe and EU are the same thing.

They think that it is an anti-racism vote.

They think that trade with EU members would stop.

They think that, despite globalisation, we will be "isolated".

They think that anyone voting leave are "little Englanders"

They think that the EU has better employment rights that they'd lose.

...I could go on.

It's easy to pick out ignorant reasons for people to vote how they did, but democracy gives everyone that right. You can't just imply ignorance on one side, it is both sides.

Of course there is ignorance on both sides Adi, but it is becoming increasingly apparent that only the Brexit side of the argument is going to actively damage our country.
The only thing that makes May’s ‘deal’ look acceptable is that it is immeasurably better than the the prospect of a ‘no-deal’, extreme Brexit which just about everyone - idiots and extremists apart - now agree would be catastrophic.
I don’t pretend to be any sort of expert, but I like to take into account the views of those who actually are, whether that be about politics or football. According to the likes of Bernard Jenkin and Rees-Mogg the Bank of England are involved in some sort of anti-Brexit conspiracy. Personally I think that’s bonkers nonsense and when the current Chancellor, the Governor of the BoE and numerous leading business figures all tell us that we’ll be better off without Brexit I for one am inclined to take notice.

My personal opinion, and that is all it is, is that a second Referendum is becoming increasingly inevitable. A ‘no deal’ Brexit will not get through Parliament (thank God) and it looks ever less likely that May’s deal will be accepted. That leaves one alternative - a second Referendum - which might just be why she is currently spending every waking hour trying to influence public opinion...after all, if this is to be decided by Parliament alone, why bother with the public?

[Manofpride]

Should there be another way of voting in the future? best of 3 or perhaps the best of 5 or 9.

[ramAnag]

Should there be another way of voting in the future? best of 3 or perhaps the best of 5 or 9.

How about, via ‘informed decision’ rather than for a ‘land of milk and honey’ portrayed by a pack of lies?
Come on MoP...even you must recognise that however flawed the EU is - and I accept it is - we are on the brink of the greatest act of national self harm in living history.

[Geoff Parkstone]

rA said "A ‘no deal’ Brexit will not get through Parliament (thank God)"

Unless I am much mistaken a "no deal Brexit" will not have to go through parliament, it would simply be the inevitable outcome if the deal on the table or any other subsequent version thereof is not agreed by the drop dead date. We have given notice that we wish to leave, if we cannot agree the basis, that does not mean we won't leave, we will simply leave with no agreement when the date passes.

Parliament may try its level best to ensure some sort of deal is cobbled together, but right now,parliament as a collective bunch of self obsessed political opportunists seem quite capable of not agreeing anything. From the vantage point of an outsider it must be like watching a Japanese warrior committing ritual hari kiri. It is oft said that you cannot trust the ignorant masses to make such an important decision, but equally you cannot trust politicians to put national decisions ahead of naked self interest.

The most strange thing of all is that, should the opposition or the governing party chose to deny any deal so as to force an election to gain either a majority in parliament or a majority in their own party, the mess will still be there to clear up and they will be stuck with doing it - which they are all equally ill equipped to do. So they may be power grabbing grubby *******s, but what when they get that power: they are no better able to sort the problem out than the incumbents. It seems largely insoluble

I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that we should abandon the leave strategy, not because I do not have strong reservations about the direction Brussels is heading in, but because we have a deal noone likes, we have a huge problem leaving with no deal and the EU can sit there and smile leaving us between Scylla and Charybdis. Two equally unacceptable options to a "swing minority" that can destroy the best intentions of anyone.

But for those still keen on Brexit, I heard some fun statistics yesterday. EU migration is falling (no surprise) BUT non EU migration is rising. Eastern Europeans are being replaced by "brown faces": what is it they call it - "The law of unintended consequences"? T^he racist "swing minority" need to take a look at what they have achieved by trying to "get those foreigners out of our jobs". it looks like one minority got us into this mess, and another minority are digging the grave