OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

Three options? The "May plan" or "a no deal exit" are options for sure, a second referendum is not an option in itself: unless you are so presumptive as to assume that second referendum = remain! What happens if you get your wish and the vote is to leave again? What happens if it is to remain this time, but with 37% of the electorate voting remain? Talk about opening further cans of worms.

If you are going to have a referendum then it must (a) put to bed this "advisory only" element as HMG has already be advised by the people once. Politicians cannot keep seeking the public's advice until they finally get a result they want and then stop asking; (b) the referendum has to ask "do you want brexit on May's terms or not?" It cannot re-ask the question, "do you want to remain after all?" If the answer to the second referendum is "no to May", then we have to crash and burn out: which as you rightly say would be a disaster that must be avoided.

I take all your points and it would be a massive risk, but if May’s plan can’t be got through Parliament and if, as you accept, a ‘no deal’ would be catastrophic for the economy then what else are we left with?

I still don’t understand why no one has acted on the fact that so many lies were told and so many electoral laws broken in the initial Referendum, but if there is to be a second one then the choices probably have to be...
1) I support the Prime Minister’s plan for Brexit.
2) I support the idea of a ‘no deal’ immediate Brexit.
3) I reject the idea of Brexit and support full and continued membership of the EU.

Totally unsatisfactory I know, but that is the mess democracy - and the Tories - have left us in. Whether these three options should then be voted on individually or by order of preference and what would constitute a victorious ‘majority’ are further questions in need of resolution. Scary times!

[Geoff Parkstone]

"I still don’t understand why no one has acted on the fact that so many lies were told and so many electoral laws broken in the initial Referendum"

you really need to get over this for the sake of your sanity and health. Both sides were guilty, no-one innocent and how do you remedy whatever you find. Annul the results of the referendum? If you did that consistently we probably would never have had a valid election ever!

[ramAnag]

"I still don’t understand why no one has acted on the fact that so many lies were told and so many electoral laws broken in the initial Referendum"

you really need to get over this for the sake of your sanity and health. Both sides were guilty, no-one innocent and how do you remedy whatever you find. Annul the results of the referendum? If you did that consistently we probably would never have had a valid election ever!

I didn’t actually say ‘annul the results of the referendum’, Parky...but I do despair when we, as a society, just abandon any concept of sticking to the rules because it’s become too difficult to adhere to them. We just seem to repeatedly make the same mistake of ‘throwing out the baby with the bath water’ or wringing our hands in despair and saying ‘well what do you expect...it always happens.’

That was an aside anyway...what really matters and is becoming increasingly crucial, is what happens next.

[Andy_Faber]

"I still don’t understand why no one has acted on the fact that so many lies were told and so many electoral laws broken in the initial Referendum"

you really need to get over this for the sake of your sanity and health. Both sides were guilty, no-one innocent and how do you remedy whatever you find. Annul the results of the referendum? If you did that consistently we probably would never have had a valid election ever!

RA, I think that's a bit harsh from GP but he's basically saying the same as I have for ages - there are no clean hands.

[mistaram]

RA I may be wrong but I suspect you are still hinting at the spending of the Brexit camp for the breaking of the rules ( which they did ) But there's was peanuts to what the Remain camp did One month before the referendum they spent a £1million pound setting up 5Ltd companies splitting the monies between them to stay under the spending limit If the want the names and amounts of the 5companies I will gladly post them for you

[ramAnag]

RA I may be wrong but I suspect you are still hinting at the spending of the Brexit camp for the breaking of the rules ( which they did ) But there's was peanuts to what the Remain camp did One month before the referendum they spent a £1million pound setting up 5Ltd companies splitting the monies between them to stay under the spending limit If the want the names and amounts of the 5companies I will gladly post them for you

I’ll take your word for it mista and I didn’t think Parky was being too ‘harsh’, Andy.
Apart from the monstrous lies and misleading of the public, what I was really referring to though mista, was the allegations about Aaron Banks and the Russians.
Aaron Banks essentially funded UKIP and was a major player in the funding of the Leave campaign, no one can disagree with that. As far as the Russians are concerned, they would be delighted to see a politically fragmented Europe...don’t think anyone would deny that either.
The question then is...how much truth is there in the rumours and suggestions of the allegedly over spending and electoral law breaking Mr. Banks gaining huge financial reward from the Russians for his part in playing the public role of UKIP/Brexit benefactor?
I happen to think that matters and I suspect the £1m you refer to mista is peanuts in comparison.

[mistaram]

RA you are right I'm not going to try and defened a scum bag like Banks because it's obvious his Russian connections His Russian wife is only allowed to stay in this country because of the string pulling of Mike Hancock a major Putin admirer

[swaledale]

I'm all for the international movement of labour, and the news reporting on it was interesting yesterday

I don't agree about the root of the Brexit fiasco though, those politicians are just stirring the pot - without the earlier policy of open doors to eastern europeans there would have been no pot to stir, because Leave voters would not have been so fired up on immigration and many would have voted Remain (or not voted)

Oh they would, because politicians were using immigrants as a scapegoat for the economic problems caused by the rich and then inflicted austerity on them! Plus as i said before, many quoted assylum seekers and non eu migrants as the problem which Brexit would solve, which just goes to demonstrate the utter ignorance of many!

[swaledale]

Possible spanner in the works #1??

Just seen on the Dutch news that, at the EU summit this coming weekend, the Spanish are going to be pushing their fellow EU governments to have Gibraltar reverting to be Spanish as a condition.

90 odd % of Gibraltarians want to remain British. Long live democracy.

Then Dutch news clearly isn't very good at stating the facts. The Spanish who aren't the only ones using an opportunity to try and get something - which is not actually Gibraltar reverting to Spain (they are not that stupid)- though quite why a remnant of the British Empire has a right to self determination is open to question, but I'm guessing if for example the Spanish had settled the Isle of Wight the Uk would be quite happy with that?

What has actually happened is, the British ambassador to the EU, Sir Tim Barrow, wrote to concede that Gibraltar would not necessarily be covered by a future trade deal with the EU. Spain will have a say in any such negotiations.

Now the Spanish politicians are saying that this means joint sovereignty will have to be discussed, but thats actually not the case- now it so happens that there are elections in Andalusia the region adjacent to Gibraltar, so its not too hard to see whats happening - still people believe literally everything any politician says..mm

[swaledale]

I'm already building Becher's Brook!!!

I think you already know my answer to that, The EU are taking the piss. If she stays we don't get what we voted for, she needs replacing by someone who believes in Brexit and quick.. The only good thing to happen if she does get her way is Farage will be back on the scene, hopefully to finish what he started! Are you with May, she is a remainer after all?

What is it about the economic ruin that a no deal brexit would inflict upon the Uk that you want?

Sure there was a vote for Brexit - most hadnt a ****ing clue what they were voting for, but there wasn't any detail about the type of brexit - anyway whilst this deal is at least something, I very much doubt we will actually achieve Brexit - most people and politicians know that shooting oneself in the foot or ****ing the economy of a country is not a sensible option on some vague idea of "taking back control".

[swaledale]

Apparently Boris Johnson went back to his matrimonial home and discovered you cant leave and get the same benefits as before!

[Andy_Faber]

many quoted assylum seekers and non eu migrants as the problem which Brexit would solve, which just goes to demonstrate the utter ignorance of many!

I disagree that it was ignorance, non-EU immigration was one of a number of things that those people identified as 'The Left Behind' felt strongly enough about to use the Brexit vote as a means of making their voices heard. And it worked...

[ramAnag]

I disagree that it was ignorance, non-EU immigration was one of a number of things that those people identified as 'The Left Behind' felt strongly enough about to use the Brexit vote as a means of making their voices heard. And it worked...

Andy...you can sympathise with those you describe as ‘the left behind’ as much as you like and it’s perfectly understandable. What you can’t reasonably suggest is that it wasn’t foolish and ignorant to use the Brexit vote to protest against ‘non EU immigration’. It self evidently was and Swale is demonstrably right.

P.S. Thought Blair was completely right this morning on Andrew Marr. Talked more sense in five minutes than Corbyn has in his entire time as Labour leader or Rees Mogg and Co. have in the whole of their over privileged lives.

[Andy_Faber]

Andy...you can sympathise with those you describe as ‘the left behind’ as much as you like and it’s perfectly understandable. What you can’t reasonably suggest is that it wasn’t foolish and ignorant to use the Brexit vote to protest against ‘non EU immigration’. It self evidently was and Swale is demonstrably right.

P.S. Thought Blair was completely right this morning on Andrew Marr. Talked more sense in five minutes than Corbyn has in his entire time as Labour leader or Rees Mogg and Co. have in the whole of their over privileged lives.

Yes I can suggest it wasn't foolish and ignorant. It wasn't ignorant because being ignorant is 'lacking knowledge or awareness' and the folk I've listened to (and I'll say again, I get around a bit so it's a lot) were in full awareness that the vote wasn't directly about non-EU Immigration, just as they were in full awareness that the vote wasn't even meant to be soleley/mainly about inter-EU immigration. I would argue that it was those who initiated the vote in the hope that it would put the EU question 'to bed' for good were the ignorant ones, lacking knowledge or awareness of the mood of the folk who put them in their position of power. Whether it proves to be foolish is for history to decide, and I'd suggest that anyone who has already decided that they can read the future on this is suffering from another great vice, arrogance. I'm prepared to wait and see, and revisit their foolishness or otherwise.

[swaledale]

I disagree that it was ignorance, non-EU immigration was one of a number of things that those people identified as 'The Left Behind' felt strongly enough about to use the Brexit vote as a means of making their voices heard. And it worked...

Oh it worked alright, as If we achieve Brexit, without staying in the customs union and single market, those "left behind" will find out, as those members of the actual elite get the low wage, low regulation economy they dream of, which basically means they will make millions (on top of the millions they are trying to make by short selling due to brexit) at the expense of the "left behind" who will find themselves in a US style economy which exploits those very people who voted leave.

Of course its ignorance - they dont understand the positives that immigration brings, but they will bear the pain if its stopped - though in reality - they will find that oly low skilled immigration will be stopped - the Uk would flounder without skilled migrants and they will find themselves forced to do the low paid unskilled insecure jobs they haven't shown much inclination to do to date!