OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

This isn't an attack or aimed RA, but what I am bored of hearing from those who think they are better informed, take your pick as to your favourite.

Standard boring remoaner response toolkit...

You were lied to.
It was only advisory.
You didn't have a plan.
Someone who has no influence over your vote, broke some rule, making your vote invalid.
It wasn't really a majority.
Those who didn't vote, wanted to remain.
Blah blah blah, I know **** all and don't even have any idea what the EU is or anything about economics, but I'm going to belittle your intelligence, because I'm brainwashed by my own propaganda.

Not much arguing with the first five though is there?
For what it’s worth I don’t for one minute think I know more than you MoP...I do however believe that a very significant number of ‘Leavers’ were totally misled...not least by a man - Farage - who has done very nicely at ‘feathering his own nest’ out of both the EU and Brexit.

[Geoff Parkstone]

RA can we just tidy up one thing. You do not accept the referendum outcome as less than a majority of those eligible to vote supported it. That much is clear.

You also say that in a parliamentary democracy why not let parliament decide. Now, given that Labour are coalescing as the party of remain, brexit will have to be achieved by the tories pulling together.

So parliamentary majority will attain brexit, ie the tories plus a bit od DUP. yet those parties received less than 50% of the popular vote. In fact I'd venture that no parliamentary majority hasreflected the view of a majority of the electorate in my lifetime.

So why is it alright for a minority elected government to make a binding decision, but not a minority voted referendum to inform that decision?

[mistaram]

Sorry MoP but I do get tired of Brexiteers moaning about how all this is a threat to our democracy.
Democracy is defined as being a state or organisation which is governed by the wishes of the majority of its members.
Brexit has never had the support of a majority of the electorate...that is a straightforward fact.
Is Democracy worth preserving if the electorate is voting on evidence provided by liars and electoral rule breakers who abuse democracy?
If Democracy is so central to the Brexiteer cause...why do they object so strongly to a second and infinitely better informed referendum? Surely that would be a greater exercise in democracy and in any case, we live in a Parliamentary Democracy so why not just let Parliament decide?

RA But surprised you think we still live in a democrasy In fact I think the referendum is the only thing that has ever been the remotest thing democratic in my lifetime A general Election is a complete joke it's always fought over the same 38 marginal seats Where's the democracy when you can live in a constituency all your life and never be represented by the party you support They brought in elections for Mayors to make it more democratic you vote for him/her Then they choose a cabinet to make all the decisions that you're not allowed to vote for The most important people in government are ministers they make most of the decisions do we get a say Remember in 2010 the first thing Cameron did was later the term of office from 4yrs to 5yrs did we get a say We vote in our local MP they can't really represent your opinions because anything controversial and they whipped into voting how they are told that
Churchil said Democracy is the most valued and also the Vaguest of political terms in the modern world. How right he was that's why I don't vote

[Manofpride]

I'm sticking with No deal is better than a bad deal, and what we have is a bad deal! We should leave without a deal and give the winning voters what they were promised. Out on the 29th no matter what!

[ramAnag]

RA can we just tidy up one thing. You do not accept the referendum outcome as less than a majority of those eligible to vote supported it. That much is clear.

You also say that in a parliamentary democracy why not let parliament decide. Now, given that Labour are coalescing as the party of remain, brexit will have to be achieved by the tories pulling together.

So parliamentary majority will attain brexit, ie the tories plus a bit od DUP. yet those parties received less than 50% of the popular vote. In fact I'd venture that no parliamentary majority hasreflected the view of a majority of the electorate in my lifetime.

So why is it alright for a minority elected government to make a binding decision, but not a minority voted referendum to inform that decision?

Geoff...you’re almost right. I do not accept the referendum result for the reason you give, but I also do not accept the referendum result because the lies that were told invalidate the whole notion of the integrity of democracy imo.

We do live in a Parliamentary democracy, and I accept it’s failings as outlined by mista. I too have little faith in many politicians but I do believe they know infinitely more than Joe Public when it comes to such specialist economic issues as EU membership.

Wanting Parliament to decide this issue is not something that needs to be done along Party lines and never, imo, has been.
Indeed if, rather than ever having the ridiculous Referendum, Parliament had simply set time aside - just a fraction of that subsequently wasted - for a thorough debate on the subject with expert input from those such as business people, bankers, financiers, health officials etc and then had a free vote on the subject the whole matter could probably have been done and dusted within a fortnight.

That way we are not talking about the decision of a ‘minority government’...which it actually wasn’t anyway at the time the Referendum was called, that has only been the case since May’s half baked General Election which led directly to the DUP having a totally disproportionate say in UK politics...but the decision of Parliament itself, the sovereignty of which I though was what the Brexiteers claimed a large part of this to be about.

P.S. Fortunately that horse has bolted, MoP and a ‘no deal’ Brexit was never what the 37% voted for...the concept hadn’t even been mentioned back in 2016.

[Geoff Parkstone]

In terms of percentage of possible voters voting for them, this and the previous parliament is no different to the sub 50% support for the referendum decision.

There may well have been careless handling of the truth surrounding the pre referendum canvassing (on both sides) but do you really think the same is not true before parliamentary elections.....

[ramAnag]

In terms of percentage of possible voters voting for them, this and the previous parliament is no different to the sub 50% support for the referendum decision.

There may well have been careless handling of the truth surrounding the pre referendum canvassing (on both sides) but do you really think the same is not true before parliamentary elections.....

We have been here before...and of course I agree that politicians are invariably careless/economic with the truth.
The old adage of ‘how do you know a politician is lying...because their lips are moving’ has never been more true.
The difference however is that, in the case of General Elections, at least we (the electorate) stand a chance of (partially) correcting our mistakes within five years.
In the case of the Referendum this is likely to impact (imo badly) upon people’s lives for many decades to come.

[MadAmster]

One of the votes this past week in Wastemonster was to rule out No Deal as an option.

No Deal is still a possibilty because those Wastemonster Jodrells also voted to extend Article 50 to the end of June. What they forgot, however, was that a) May has to have a very good reason to persuade the EU 27 that there is something new on the table they can take seriously b) it will take just one of the 27 to say no/non/nein/nee on, I believe the 21st and our government will be left with a mere 10 days to make a decision and that might be overtaken by the looming deadline of March 31st, 23:00 UK time when, if there has not been an agreement and the extension was voted down by the EU then the UK will leave on WTO terms.

This aint over yet. Far from it in fact.

[mistaram]

[QUOTE=ramAnag;39173021]Not much arguing with the first five though is there?
For what it’s worth I don’t for one minute think I know more than you MoP...I do however believe that a very significant number of ‘Leavers’ were totally misled...not least by a man - Farage - who has done very nicely at ‘feathering his own nest’ out of both the EU and Brexit.[/QUOTE

Not feathered it anymore than Osbourne and Cameron theve not done bad out of it

[ramAnag]

[QUOTE=mistaram;39173627]

Not much arguing with the first five though is there?
For what it’s worth I don’t for one minute think I know more than you MoP...I do however believe that a very significant number of ‘Leavers’ were totally misled...not least by a man - Farage - who has done very nicely at ‘feathering his own nest’ out of both the EU and Brexit.[/QUOTE

Not feathered it anymore than Osbourne and Cameron theve not done bad out of it

When have I ever defended the gruesome twosome?

The point about Farage is that he has made a fortune - and a very, very healthy pension - out of something he has spent the last God knows how long trying to destroy.

‘Man of the people’? Don’t make me laugh.

[mistaram]

[QUOTE=ramAnag;39174078]

When have I ever defended the gruesome twosome?

The point about Farage is that he has made a fortune - and a very, very healthy pension - out of something he has spent the last God knows how long trying to destroy.

‘Man of the people’? Don’t make me laugh.

I've got no time for Farage but he's no worse than those two Watch Cameron in Y/tube talking to Donald Tusk he asks him why he had the referendum. Cameron says the country wanted it so we put it in our manifesto We ended up in a coalition then we carried on with it being certain the Lib Dems would veto it But they didn't How bloody stupid and selfish was that He's been more a danger to this country than Farage could ever be ill

[ramAnag]

[QUOTE=mistaram;39174098]

I've got no time for Farage but he's no worse than those two Watch Cameron in Y/tube talking to Donald Tusk he asks him why he had the referendum. Cameron says the country wanted it so we put it in our manifesto We ended up in a coalition then we carried on with it being certain the Lib Dems would veto it But they didn't How bloody stupid and selfish was that He's been more a danger to this country than Farage could ever be ill

Doesn’t matter though mista. Totally agree about Cameron and Osborne - and anyone else in the Bullingdon Club come to that - but they’re ‘yesterday’s men’, politically speaking.
Farage on the other hand is about to kick off all over again and if you want an example of someone who has profited out of everyone else’s Brexit nightmare...look no further.
Hypocrite of the first order imo.

[mistaram]

[QUOTE=ramAnag;39174167]

Doesn’t matter though mista. Totally agree about Cameron and Osborne - and anyone else in the Bullingdon Club come to that - but they’re ‘yesterday’s men’, politically speaking.
Farage on the other hand is about to kick off all over again and if you want an example of someone who has profited out of everyone else’s Brexit nightmare...look no further.
Hypocrite of the first order imo.

RA agree with you 100% about Farage but they are all hypocrites Gove is now arse kicking May because he wants her job this is what he said " The day after we vote to leave we hold all the cards " What about Liam (keeping my head down) Fox "The deal we do with the EU will be one of the easiest in human history" Don't get me on about Johnson Davis Redwood etc all two faces liars Rant over going to P/park to watch the U23 c Wolves at least those lads are genuine

[ramAnag]

[QUOTE=mistaram;39174399]

RA agree with you 100% about Farage but they are all hypocrites Gove is now arse kicking May because he wants her job this is what he said " The day after we vote to leave we hold all the cards " What about Liam (keeping my head down) Fox "The deal we do with the EU will be one of the easiest in human history" Don't get me on about Johnson Davis Redwood etc all two faces liars Rant over going to P/park to watch the U23 c Wolves at least those lads are genuine

I couldn’t agree with you more, but Farage enrages me most because he is the one who has got ‘rich, fat and famous’ from his pretence to be offering a different face of politics. He and Trump are, to me, the biggest political cons of all time.
Enjoy the U23’s.

[mistaram]

[QUOTE=ramAnag;39174492]

I couldn’t agree with you more, but Farage enrages me most because he is the one who has got ‘rich, fat and famous’ from his pretence to be offering a different face of politics. He and Trump are, to me, the biggest political cons of all time.
Enjoy the U23’s.

RA I'm disillusioned with all our political system Full of self serving crooks imo.Been reading about David Davis walked out of Brexit talks because his brain wouldn't allow to understand what it was actually about.Read his register of Financial Interests JOB Rocester ST145J reads from
1at Jan2019 to 1st Jan2020 External advisor 20yrs a year paid quarterly
Not bad £3,000 an hour still I bet he's an expert on bulldozers
Just coincidence that each Brexiteer Lord Bamford is the largest Tory donor . The same bloke who paid Boris £10,000 to make a Brexit speech to his employees

U23 good game win 2-1 against Wolves in the cup Wolves in the division below but they are too of it Derby scored with goals from Mitchel-Lawson and Cresswell Wolves team mainly Portuguese and Spanish players