OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Trickytreesreds]

So, in essence, what you’re saying Tricky is that things have changed significantly since 1975.

Of course you’re absolutely right...mind you, there’s been a few changes since 2016 and I certainly don’t ever recall a ‘no deal Brexit’ having any part in the Referendum choice back then.

Absoulte rubbish. We should never have joined in the first place. Had we been told the truth in the seventies, then voted. The British people would have rioted. Heath knew this and buried it in the archives,
The starting point for my talk was the release under the 30-year rule last January of documents relating to Britain’s application to join the Common Market in 1970. What these papers revealed more starkly than ever before was just how deliberately the Heath Government and the Foreign Office set out to conceal from the British people the Common Market’s true purpose. They were fully aware that it was intended to be merely the first step towards creating a politically united Europe, but they were determined to hide this away from view.

As for 2016. Remind me again.
What did the ballot paper say? Leave or remain I believe it was.
If you was too thick to now listen to Cameron and others who explained what that meant. Then god help you.

https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=mcafee&p=cameron+explains+what+leaving+eu+means#id=51&vid=0f8a9a7937fbb264293d0f36989c122e&action=click

[ramAnag]

Absoulte rubbish. We should never have joined in the first place. Had we been told the truth in the seventies, then voted. The British people would have rioted. Heath knew this and buried it in the archives,
The starting point for my talk was the release under the 30-year rule last January of documents relating to Britain’s application to join the Common Market in 1970. What these papers revealed more starkly than ever before was just how deliberately the Heath Government and the Foreign Office set out to conceal from the British people the Common Market’s true purpose. They were fully aware that it was intended to be merely the first step towards creating a politically united Europe, but they were determined to hide this away from view.

As for 2016. Remind me again.
What did the ballot paper say? Leave or remain I believe it was.
If you was too thick to now listen to Cameron and others who explained what that meant. Then god help you.
https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/se...e&action=click

Wow...you do get excitable and agitated when things aren’t going your way, Tricky. Almost as if you’re scratching a forty six year old itch.

Anyway...let’s look at the reality...those who voted for Brexit did so on the understanding that there would still be ‘frictionless and tariff free movement of goods’, that all UK citizens living in the EU and vice versa would continue to enjoy pre Brexit rights, that we (the UK) would fulfill our commitment to the 2014-20 EU budget, that security cooperation between the UK and the EU would continue and likewise with medical and scientific research which, I understand from others more knowledgeable than me, has already begun to suffer.

All that is seriously jeopardised by the prospect of a ‘No Deal’ Brexit. It is not what many who supported the Leave campaign voted for any more than they voted for three years of a weaker pound, more expensive holidays, more expensive imports, more complicated border arrangements etc.

The Referendum resulted in a tiny majority for an ‘orderly and well managed’ exit from the EU. Only the most committed and obsessive Eurosceptics remain in favour of a ‘No Deal’...it is bad for both the UK and Europe and there is absolutely no mandate in the country or majority in Parliament for a ‘no deal’.

If you think otherwise, why are you and all the other Remainers so frightened of a second Referendum now that so many more are so much better informed of the consequences?

[MadAmster]

If you think otherwise, why are you and all the other Remainers so frightened of a second Referendum now that so many more are so much better informed of the consequences?

.... might you have meant Leavers?

[Geoff Parkstone]

How do you know what leavers voted for, you have no knowledge of what was in their minds when they pencilled in their "X". You like to think they voted for an orderly Brexit but reality is that it was a yes or no, and not a how, question.

Most leave voters that I know were simply fed up with the past, present and prospective future under european political union. Didn't (and in some cases still don't) care how that exit is achieved. It was never a consideration, just get out, however

[ramAnag]

.... might you have meant Leavers?

Oops...indeed...thank MA...senior moment!

Fair point, GP...obviously I don’t know what all Leavers voted for, but what I have described is what we were all told at the time of the Referendum and I do know of a number who have changed their minds since reality kicked in as is perhaps illustrated most clearly and most recently by the Welsh farmers.
I’m not suggesting that people don’t continue to have reservations about the EU...as you know I share some of them...but what we’re in danger of getting at the moment is not what I believe people - by definition Leavers - voted for.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Maybe I'm an exception, but I actually didn't listen to any of the tripe that was thrown around by all sides prior to the referendum. Didn't listen to any of the debates, didn't listen to any politician discussing anything as I have learned over the years that with few exceptions they put the good of themselves ahead of the good of the country. Snouts in the trough one and all.

So I voted based on my own imperfect knowledge and experience. Maybe others were swayed by what they were indoctrinated with from both sides of the debate, who knows. Thus I find it hard to accept that others were persuaded by the propoganda "wot I wuz told", although I fear that was the case as Joe Public, on average, doesn't have the acuity to form his or her own considered opinion on such a complex issue.

Which of course does bring us back to the question of why Joe Public was asked.... but the answer to that is a self evident truth. I guess it was felt that the clay known as Joe Public could be manipulated and moulded to form the appropriate decision by those sponsoring either side of the debate: and one side were better at pottery.

[AngryRam]

How do you know what leavers voted for, you have no knowledge of what was in their minds when they pencilled in their "X". You like to think they voted for an orderly Brexit but reality is that it was a yes or no, and not a how, question.

Most leave voters that I know were simply fed up with the past, present and prospective future under european political union. Didn't (and in some cases still don't) care how that exit is achieved. It was never a consideration, just get out, however

He knows all our thoughts.. He is a wise old sage drama teacher, who knows what is best.

[MadAmster]

Maybe I'm an exception, but I actually didn't listen to any of the tripe that was thrown around by all sides prior to the referendum. Didn't listen to any of the debates, didn't listen to any politician discussing anything as I have learned over the years that with few exceptions they put the good of themselves ahead of the good of the country. Snouts in the trough one and all.

So I voted based on my own imperfect knowledge and experience. Maybe others were swayed by what they were indoctrinated with from both sides of the debate, who knows. Thus I find it hard to accept that others were persuaded by the propoganda "wot I wuz told", although I fear that was the case as Joe Public, on average, doesn't have the acuity to form his or her own considered opinion on such a complex issue.

Which of course does bring us back to the question of why Joe Public was asked.... but the answer to that is a self evident truth. I guess it was felt that the clay known as Joe Public could be manipulated and moulded to form the appropriate decision by those sponsoring either side of the debate: and one side were better at pottery.

GP. I mentioned why in a different context in another post on this thread yesterday. The Tory party had been tearing itself apart for years over the EU. The referendum had one purpose, namely, to reunite the Conservative and Unionist Party and hereby make it the party mst likely to get elected. Cameron et al never countenanced, in their wildest dreams, that Leave would garner more votes than Reamin. Without that huge split in the Tory party, there would never have been a referendum. No Brexit either.

Yet again individual and party interests have taken precedence over all else.

I hate the EU with a vengeance but I believe it needs killing from within by reform and the removal of the political clout, once more becoming a free trade area and no more than that.

[ramAnag]

He knows all our thoughts.. He is a wise old sage drama teacher, who knows what is best.

Oh God...another empty headed contribution from he who has nothing to offer.

More relevantly...wouldn’t disagree with anything in those second two paragraphs, GP...and thereby lies the tragedy of our current plight...we trusted in the notion of a simplistic vote by a poorly informed public on an incredibly complex question.

Oh ****...Roy’s out!

[Trickytreesreds]

Wow...you do get excitable and agitated when things aren’t going your way, Tricky. Almost as if you’re scratching a forty six year old itch.

Anyway...let’s look at the reality...those who voted for Brexit did so on the understanding that there would still be ‘frictionless and tariff free movement of goods’, that all UK citizens living in the EU and vice versa would continue to enjoy pre Brexit rights, that we (the UK) would fulfill our commitment to the 2014-20 EU budget, that security cooperation between the UK and the EU would continue and likewise with medical and scientific research which, I understand from others more knowledgeable than me, has already begun to suffer.

All that is seriously jeopardised by the prospect of a ‘No Deal’ Brexit. It is not what many who supported the Leave campaign voted for any more than they voted for three years of a weaker pound, more expensive holidays, more expensive imports, more complicated border arrangements etc.

The Referendum resulted in a tiny majority for an ‘orderly and well managed’ exit from the EU. Only the most committed and obsessive Eurosceptics remain in favour of a ‘No Deal’...it is bad for both the UK and Europe and there is absolutely no mandate in the country or majority in Parliament for a ‘no deal’.

If you think otherwise, why are you and all the other Remainers so frightened of a second Referendum now that so many more are so much better informed of the consequences?

i and my parents are better informed than the public was in the seventies thank you very much.
I'll reiterate it again. Had they admitted what was being planned behind the scenes, we would have never joined in the first place.
all this would be a mute point.
By complying with them, you are advocating the deception.
It runs right to the core. Having recruited hundreds of school leavers in their ***** over the years.
Their lack of knowledge about EU history astounds me. They have been brain washed that the EU is the mother and father of us all.
From being able to get on a plane, to having food on the table is all down to the EU.
It scares me exactly what indoctination is taught in the education system today.

You seem easily scared, has the indoctrination been part of your training?

Recession is coming all over. The reality is dawning on the EU at last, what being a bunch of ****ty bullies gets you.
Let them sweat.

[Trickytreesreds]

GP. I mentioned why in a different context in another post on this thread yesterday. The Tory party had been tearing itself apart for years over the EU. The referendum had one purpose, namely, to reunite the Conservative and Unionist Party and hereby make it the party mst likely to get elected. Cameron et al never countenanced, in their wildest dreams, that Leave would garner more votes than Reamin. Without that huge split in the Tory party, there would never have been a referendum. No Brexit either.

Yet again individual and party interests have taken precedence over all else.

I hate the EU with a vengeance but I believe it needs killing from within by reform and the removal of the political clout, once more becoming a free trade area and no more than that.

Good call. But it won't change without something drastic happening.
You only have to listen to Verhofstadt to know that. Every hiccup, "more union" is the cry.

Us leaving, will in my opinion trigger others to consider it. It needs to be proven.
Unelected officials running large araes is just not on.

[ramAnag]

i and my parents are better informed than the public was in the seventies thank you very much.
I'll reiterate it again. Had they admitted what was being planned behind the scenes, we would have never joined in the first place.
all this would be a mute point.
By complying with them, you are advocating the deception.
It runs right to the core. Having recruited hundreds of school leavers in their ***** over the years.
Their lack of knowledge about EU history astounds me. They have been brain washed that the EU is the mother and father of us all.
From being able to get on a plane, to having food on the table is all down to the EU.
It scares me exactly what indoctination is taught in the education system today.

You seem easily scared, has the indoctrination been part of your training?

Recession is coming all over. The reality is dawning on the EU at last, what being a bunch of ****ty bullies gets you.
Let them sweat.

‘It scares me exactly what indoctrination is taught in the education system today...

...you seem easily scared, has the indoctrination been part of your training?’

What are you talking about? Htf do I appear either ‘easily scared’ or ‘indoctrinated’?

‘Unelected officials running large areas is just not on’. Two words...Dominic Cummings.

[Geoff Parkstone]

GP. I mentioned why in a different context in another post on this thread yesterday. The Tory party had

Maybe not such a "self evident truth" as I had thought, such that it needed repeating for the 173rd time on this thread!!

[Andy_Faber]

Oops...indeed...thank MA...senior moment!

not what I believe people - by definition Leavers - voted for.

Although you aren't quite so explicit here, its a tactic of an increasing number of in-denial remainers to state theat a no-deal Brexit is definitely NOT what leavers voted for. I keep reading the wording of the ballot paper and it for sure DOESN'T exclude a no-deal Brexit, in fact it isn't specific at all

[AngryRam]

I see Corbyn is trying to push for power and the Lib Dem’s have laughed in his face. Democracy is hanging by a thread but will break if the Remainers in Parliament push through a vote of no confidence. Absolutely shocking tactics.
Pelosi is also trying to muscle in on Brexit as well. Roll on October, get this behind us and we can then move forward.