OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Trickytreesreds]

It would be nice to think that by staying in the eu, we could change things. But in reality, the eu is a supertanker set on a course which would need a major event to change direction, maybe brexit, who knows.

Let's face it, Britain is 1 of 28 countries, of which 19 are also in the Euro zone. To think that we'll ever be in a position to change things, is fanciful. Our political position within the eu was very weak, even before the referendum.

Good call. Exactly how many times has the UK tried to change the EU and how many has it won?
It's zero, if you wondered.
We don';t fit in. We don't agree with the EU mandate of unification/ we don't want the single currency/ we don't like the free movement of labour.
We was always going to lose every attempt at reform. Basically, we pay money, for no influence. Germany and France have the same mandate and call the shots.
Fine by me, au revoir/ auf weidersehen----- so long and thanks for all the fish

[Trickytreesreds]

False.

Really?
Wow, you're more deluded and conditioned than I thought

[Trickytreesreds]

OK ramanag, here's something for you to chew on. Broaden your horizons my friend and open your ****ing eyes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2Ralocq9uE

https://euobserver.com/economic/116448

http://www.irishnews.com/opinion/columnists/2016/05/13/news/eu-referendum-is-all-about-empire-building-517556/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyHXJSyOCYE

It's happening and I'm glad we're out of it. ASAP please

[ramAnag]

Really?
Wow, you're more deluded and conditioned than I thought

Amazing...you specifically request a one word answer and then resort to abuse when you get one.
Got better things to do tbh, than sift through your carefully selected links which usually only support your latest conspiracy theory, but a longer answer to your question would have been that, imo, Putin is the aggressor and NATO, rather than the EU, are responsible for the reaction.
It's a dangerous situation for sure but not one of the EU's making, again imo.

[southernram22]

ramanag i to detest being ruled by cameron osborne etc and tbh i dont expect the country could put out eleven good ones in total.

[Trickytreesreds]

Amazing...you specifically request a one word answer and then resort to abuse when you get one.
Got better things to do tbh, than sift through your carefully selected links which usually only support your latest conspiracy theory, but a longer answer to your question would have been that, imo, Putin is the aggressor and NATO, rather than the EU, are responsible for the reaction.
It's a dangerous situation for sure but not one of the EU's making, again imo.

absolute rubbish. I didn't insult you at all.
However you are way off the mark.
The EU has sucked in most of the old Iron curtain countries and is seeking to add the Ukraine into that mix.
The Ukraine has a strong Russian population, which makes this very volatile.
They don't care.
Our Brexit has caused the eastern bloc countries, to ask Britain's inclusion at protection as a condition of exit.
Why?
They aren't our problem. We are not in a NATO pact with them.
Because the EU has encouraged the Ukraine to seek membership and is rattling Putins cage.

THAT SIR, IS EMPIRE BUILDING
Like it or not.
The UK used to be known as Great Britain. The day the Empire was fractured encouraged the name change.
It's funny how because of the EU, we aren't allowed to be involved in free movement or trade with the Commonwealth countries.

QED

least you can do is watch the first link, hear it from the horses mouth

[ramAnag]

So calling someone 'deluded' and 'conditioned' when they disagree with you and telling them to 'open their ****ing eyes' isn't just a tad insulting in your world? Wow!

You specifically asked for a one word response to whether the EU was playing fast and loose with Putin's borders and in the Middle East. You got one, you didn't like it, you didn't agree with it...that's fine, I don't really care, but please don't tell me you didn't then become insulting.

[Trickytreesreds]

So calling someone 'deluded' and 'conditioned' when they disagree with you and telling them to 'open their ****ing eyes' isn't just a tad insulting in your world? Wow!

You specifically asked for a one word response to whether the EU was playing fast and loose with Putin's borders and in the Middle East. You got one, you didn't like it, you didn't agree with it...that's fine, I don't really care, but please don't tell me you didn't then become insulting.

Compared to whats thrown at me, no I don't
the fact I've challenged you seems to rile you more.
You will believe what you want. That's fine. However don; t be blinkered. Baroso calls the EU an empire
Deny that.

[ramAnag]

'Thrown at you' by me? Thought I'd been remarkably restrained.
'Challenged me'? You asked me a question and I'm anything but 'blinkered'.
As for Barruso...your clip is selective, nearly a decade old and he hasn't had a significant connection with he EU for two years has he?

[Trickytreesreds]

'Thrown at you' by me? Thought I'd been remarkably restrained.
'Challenged me'? You asked me a question and I'm anything but 'blinkered'.
As for Barruso...your clip is selective, nearly a decade old and he hasn't had a significant connection with he EU for two years has he?

Never said by you, you are being too sensitive
As for Baruso, as an ex EU president. Do you believe the goal has changed?
God give me strength.

[swaledale]

Amazing...you specifically request a one word answer and then resort to abuse when you get one.
Got better things to do tbh, than sift through your carefully selected links which usually only support your latest conspiracy theory, but a longer answer to your question would have been that, imo, Putin is the aggressor and NATO, rather than the EU, are responsible for the reaction.
It's a dangerous situation for sure but not one of the EU's making, again imo.

Now one can see how dictators get into power, they say things which in part appeal to people whoa re quite reasonable and the bits that are clearly false or even downright ludicrous get ignored by saner people because they agree with the main thrust of the argument. A strategy which Trump uses very effectively, yet how can you take someone seriously or even claim to be aligned with their views when much of what they say is patently untrue and their argument is constructed emtirely from carefully selected information which supports their predetermined view?

Its kinda like the prominent US Republican who said, I don't care if you say Obama's a Christian, I believe he is a muslim and what I believe is true and you can't change what I believe!

OK so it does not matter if we suffer economically at least we will be "free" or only ruled by goons that we elected! Although seeing as most of what affects are lives is influenced by unelected people anyway I really don't see how much has changed!

I'm kinda intrigued by who the "we"are whom Tricky mentions - always a sign of questionable sanity when a person talks like that in my expereince!

Oh and Angry, read some of Trickys posts, plenty of insults, apart from his posts insulting my intelligence, quite early on in the debate he even suggested that I "get off this board" which from him of all people was bleeding cheek!

[ramAnag]

Never said by you, you are being too sensitive
As for Baruso, as an ex EU president. Do you believe the goal has changed?
God give me strength.

So, to sum up...to disagree with you equals, 'deluded' and 'conditioned'.
To not share your perspective equals, 'open your ****ing eyes'.
To criticise your over reactive response equals, 'too sensitive'.

Seems like I'm just meant to agree with the world according to TTR...not going to happen. Sad to say, I sort of now have the same feelings about you on the DCFC board as you appear to have about Eastern Europeans in the UK...we'd all be a lot better off if you buggered off back, coincidentally east, to where you 'belong'.

P.S. ...and yes, I think political goals are constantly changing and being modified but you usually have to be a respected part of something in order to play a part in such change.

[Trickytreesreds]

So, to sum up...to disagree with you equals, 'deluded' and 'conditioned'.
To not share your perspective equals, 'open your ****ing eyes'.
To criticise your over reactive response equals, 'too sensitive'.

Seems like I'm just meant to agree with the world according to TTR...not going to happen. Sad to say, I sort of now have the same feelings about you on the DCFC board as you appear to have about Eastern Europeans in the UK...we'd all be a lot better off if you buggered off back, coincidentally east, to where you 'belong'.

P.S. ...and yes, I think political goals are constantly changing and being modified but you usually have to be a respected part of something in order to play a part in such change.

lol 10/10 for irony.

Let me recap, it's actually you and Swale who are throwing the dummy out over this. It's you two who won't give an inch to the voting choice.It's you two who argue down everyone with a different understanding on what the EU represents.
It's you two, who's sole argument is about the economics of what or maybe an outcome. Whilst ignoring the issues that really pissed everyone off/ unless there is a chance to throw racist/bigot/xenophobe into the ring.
Then the petty remarks and patronising kicks in, about intelligence or social class.
You two have narrow minded opinions nailed to the door and are so EU indoctrinated, that you really should consider being a Juncker PR officer.

Don't worry, I'll still love you both for what you are. xxxx

[ramAnag]

lol 10/10 for irony.

Let me recap, it's actually you and Swale who are throwing the dummy out over this. It's you two who won't give an inch to the voting choice.It's you two who argue down everyone with a different understanding on what the EU represents.
It's you two, who's sole argument is about the economics of what or maybe an outcome. Whilst ignoring the issues that really pissed everyone off/ unless there is a chance to throw racist/bigot/xenophobe into the ring.
Then the petty remarks and patronising kicks in, about intelligence or social class.
You two have narrow minded opinions nailed to the door and are so EU indoctrinated, that you really should consider being a Juncker PR officer.

Don't worry, I'll still love you both for what you are. xxxx

Yet more nonsense...I've never called you 'racist'...simply referred to you and another poster as having 'xenophobic tendencies', a claim which is totally justified given the way you repeatedly appear to display a mistrust of 'foreigners'. Neither do I think you will find any comments I've made about 'intelligence' or 'social class', although I do concede that I feel many people were misled by lies during the campaign.

I'm not 'throwing the dummy' at all and neither, as far as I can tell, is Swale. Neither do we speak with one voice. I agree with much of what Swale says and I think he talks a lot of sense but we don't know each other, don't act in conjunction with one another and, I think, have been quite amenable to the ideas of those such as Angry (usually), AF, Roger and others who have taken us to task in a more informed and less dogmatic way than yourself. That's probably why we're on post 719 in a, generally, healthy debate here and not stuck on 15 like your own board's somewhat impoverished recent best effort.

As for being an 'indoctrinated Juncker PR officer'...you keep insisting that I must be a supporter of Juncker, Cameron and Osborn if I am in favour of remaining in the EU. That is of course total nonsense. Can't abide any of them, fully accept that the EU has become over bureaucrasised - as I've said time and time again - but I simply feel that change from within is preferable to finding ourselves totally isolated.

[macstheman]

As a waverer who is happy to take on board both sides of this discussion can someone explain the democratic process by which major policy change is achieved within the EU??