OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[MadAmster]

A couple of questions TTR

1. where did the 17.5M figure come from and to what does it pertain?
2. I googled how many EU citizens in the UK in 2021 and got the figure 3.5M, where did you get 6M from? https://blog.ons.gov.uk/2021/07/02/a...ing-in-the-uk/
3. Wages. You say they are low because "land owners/supermarkets want it done for next to nothing."How is that the fault of the EU?
4. I looked and, as of June 2020, there were 404K Romanians in the UK https://www.google.com/search?q=how+...4dUDCA4&uact=5
.... where did you get the 900K figure?

[Andy_Faber]

Sorry Andy...you’re making no sense.

I post an objective on topic post about the apparent impact of Brexit upon local refuse collection backed up by a circular sent to local residents by a (Conservative) District Council.

You reply saying, very forthrightly, that the communique ‘makes no link between Brexit and the driver shortage’.

I take umbrage at you effectively saying I’ve made this up and provide the quote, source and time, and further provide you privately with a full copy of the Derbyshire Dales message which categorically includes the comment that ‘the emergency situation...has been compounded by a national shortage of 100,000 HGV drivers as a result of Brexit.’

You then apologise but in the next breath (sentence) accuse me of having ‘subconsciously embellished’ the story. How?

OK If you insist.

I’ll just focus on one thing, that is your comment ‘Absolutely no embellishment from me, Andy.... The words I used are exactly the same as the words that were forwarded to me by DDDC...Up to you if you apologise. I think we should when we’re 100% in the wrong and accuse others of being deliberately so’.

I’ll simply quote from two of your posts.

The above post quotes from the DD press release
‘Many councils have declared an ‘emergency situation’ after large numbers of staff have been told to self isolate by the Covid-19 app.
This has been compounded by a national shortage of 100,000 HGV drivers as a result of Brexit’.

Agreed, that’s what it says. (Further drilling into the source data suggests its totally wrong but that’s a separate issue I'm happy to explain again)

In your first post on the subject you state: (my italics)

'(I) just received an emailed circular from no axe to grind Derbyshire Dales (Conservative) District Council regarding their refuse collection failures.
It places the blame on two or three factors...Covid, problems with wages...but overwhelmingly on a national shortage of 100,000 HGV drivers caused entirely by...Brexit.

That’s a) embellishment and b) not the exact words used by DD. I’m not even going to put a spin on why you might have done that, just pointing out a fact.

[Andy_Faber]

A couple of questions TTR

1. where did the 17.5M figure come from and to what does it pertain?
2. I googled how many EU citizens in the UK in 2021 and got the figure 3.5M, where did you get 6M from? https://blog.ons.gov.uk/2021/07/02/a...ing-in-the-uk/
3. Wages. You say they are low because "land owners/supermarkets want it done for next to nothing."How is that the fault of the EU?
4. I looked and, as of June 2020, there were 404K Romanians in the UK https://www.google.com/search?q=how+...4dUDCA4&uact=5
.... where did you get the 900K figure?

MA,

TTR is no doubt plugged in somewhere for a recharge, so in the meantime...I'd seen an article on point 2 (and by extension point 3) on the AOL front page recently. From my recollection you're right and he isn't but he has a point. The official figure IS 3.5 million, but the number of applications for settled status is well in excess of that, something like 5.7 million people (there have been lots of duplicate applications for some reason), and of course that 2.2 million may, or may not, exercise their right to settle in UK in the future. Rumanians, being subject to the same process are a subset of the whole.

Where TTR does have a stronger point (I can't find the exact post, he's a bit too prolific for me) is that even your lower number is in the order of ten times the number anticipated when the borders were opened to Eastern Europe, and that monumental miscalculation is one of the reasons our public services are creaking at the seems (by no means the only one of course)

[ramAnag]

OK If you insist.

I’ll just focus on one thing, that is your comment ‘Absolutely no embellishment from me, Andy.... The words I used are exactly the same as the words that were forwarded to me by DDDC...Up to you if you apologise. I think we should when we’re 100% in the wrong and accuse others of being deliberately so’.

I’ll simply quote from two of your posts.

The above post quotes from the DD press release
‘Many councils have declared an ‘emergency situation’ after large numbers of staff have been told to self isolate by the Covid-19 app.
This has been compounded by a national shortage of 100,000 HGV drivers as a result of Brexit’.

Agreed, that’s what it says. (Further drilling into the source data suggests its totally wrong but that’s a separate issue I'm happy to explain again)

In your first post on the subject you state: (my italics)

'(I) just received an emailed circular from no axe to grind Derbyshire Dales (Conservative) District Council regarding their refuse collection failures.
It places the blame on two or three factors...Covid, problems with wages...but overwhelmingly on a national shortage of 100,000 HGV drivers caused entirely by...Brexit.

That’s a) embellishment and b) not the exact words used by DD. I’m not even going to put a spin on why you might have done that, just pointing out a fact.

How many times? So...I, and they, have referred to Covid, problems with wages and Brexit. In the context of all the communications we, as Derbyshire Dales residents, have received that is entirely correct, but the particular quote says, ‘this has been compounded by a national shortage of HGV drivers as a result of Brexit.’

That is all I have ever claimed. There was no qualification however much you’d like to find one, ‘this has been compounded by a national shortage of HGV drivers as a result of Brexit’ is what was said and there is no avoiding that, in this case you are...stubbornly wrong. The words I quoted were the ‘exact words’.

Not sure what your problem is over this. As I remember it you didn’t even vote for bloody Brexit, but you started this off by denying that Brexit was even mentioned in the communique.

‘It makes no link between Brexit and the driver shortage, in fact it doesn’t expand on use of ‘Brexit’ at all’ were the exact words you used and you were totally wrong and out of order on that.

Perhaps you’d be better off considering the consequences of a Tory Council in a Leave area laying the blame for the current widespread problems with refuse collection on Brexit, rather than trying to play semantic games with me.

[Trickytreesreds]

A couple of questions TTR

1. where did the 17.5M figure come from and to what does it pertain?
2. I googled how many EU citizens in the UK in 2021 and got the figure 3.5M, where did you get 6M from? https://blog.ons.gov.uk/2021/07/02/a...ing-in-the-uk/
3. Wages. You say they are low because "land owners/supermarkets want it done for next to nothing."How is that the fault of the EU?
4. I looked and, as of June 2020, there were 404K Romanians in the UK https://www.google.com/search?q=how+...4dUDCA4&uact=5
.... where did you get the 900K figure?

1. The 17.5 M was the voters who said no
2. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/56846637 it has gone up since
3. It's the EU fault for absorbing all the old soviet bloc countries and upsetting the standard of living in Northern Europe. Free movement has driven it.
4. The 900 000 came from a poltics tv programme. I'll try to find it. Over a year ago, it cleared half a million THAT APPLIED for permanent residency. https://www.romania-insider.com/roma...t-uk-residence


If you want to look at what that does for areas, try this. Avoid Sheffield if you can

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kA-H4ItqOLo

[Trickytreesreds]

Couldn't find what i watched, but here's a romanian news figure, 918 000.
It's not something the BBC would admit to.

http://romaninuk.net/index.php/2013-10-26-20-46-15/utile-in-uk/2010-termenul-limita-pentru-romanii-care-vor-sa-obtina-rezidenta-britanica

So would you like to revise your ratio?

[Andy_Faber]

How many times? So...I, and they, have referred to Covid, problems with wages and Brexit. In the context of all the communications we, as Derbyshire Dales residents, have received that is entirely correct, but the particular quote says, ‘this has been compounded by a national shortage of HGV drivers as a result of Brexit.’

That is all I have ever claimed. There was no qualification however much you’d like to find one, ‘this has been compounded by a national shortage of HGV drivers as a result of Brexit’ is what was said and there is no avoiding that, in this case you are...stubbornly wrong. The words I quoted were the ‘exact words’.

Not sure what your problem is over this. As I remember it you didn’t even vote for bloody Brexit, but you started this off by denying that Brexit was even mentioned in the communique.

‘It makes no link between Brexit and the driver shortage, in fact it doesn’t expand on use of ‘Brexit’ at all’ were the exact words you used and you were totally wrong and out of order on that.

Perhaps you’d be better off considering the consequences of a Tory Council in a Leave area laying the blame for the current widespread problems with refuse collection on Brexit rather than trying to play semantic games with me.

If you think your words were the exact words there's no response I can offer so I'll back out of this one like I should have done yesterday

[ramAnag]

If you think your words were the exact words there's no response I can offer so I'll back out of this one like I should have done yesterday

Ah...the old ‘back out’ trick...again! No idea what’s happened to you Andy but it won’t work. Next you’ll be saying, ‘Oh, I was just joshing rA,’...again! The words used by DDDC were the words I quoted.

The words I quoted were the exact words. Derbyshire Dales wrote yesterday about the refuse collection problem...`this has been compounded by a national shortage of 100,000 HGV drivers as a result of Brexit.’ That is not my opinion it is fact which, despite you initially denying that Brexit was even mentioned, I have provided for you in black and white.

Tell you what...to clear this monumentally boring, but highly relevant, spat up for good...if you still don’t believe they wrote that ‘this has been compounded by a national shortage of 100,000 HGV drivers as a result of Brexit’, you tell us all what they did actually write.

[Trickytreesreds]

Tell you what...to clear this monumentally boring, but highly relevant, spat up for good...if you still don’t believe they wrote that ‘this has been compounded by a national shortage of 100,000 HGV drivers as a result of Brexit’, you tell us all what they did actually write.

RA that is simply not true.
The Brexit thing is a red herring to cover up the plight.
There are 80 000 HGV drivers in this country now! NOT WORKING in the industry. All qualified and reeady for the job. They won't do it, because of wages and conditions.
Just because the Poles and Romanians have had enough and bombed it as well, is bugger all to do with Brexit.
We reaped what we sowed.
Just like Starmer with the Labour party. This country has a lot of wrongs to put right, that isn't going to happen over night.

[ramAnag]

Tell you what...to clear this monumentally boring, but highly relevant, spat up for good...if you still don’t believe they wrote that ‘this has been compounded by a national shortage of 100,000 HGV drivers as a result of Brexit’, you tell us all what they did actually write.

RA that is simply not true.
The Brexit thing is a red herring to cover up the plight.
There are 80 000 HGV drivers in this country now! NOT WORKING in the industry. All qualified and reeady for the job. They won't do it, because of wages and conditions.
Just because the Poles and Romanians have had enough and bombed it as well, is bugger all to do with Brexit.
We reaped what we sowed.
Just like Starmer with the Labour party. This country has a lot of wrongs to put right, that isn't going to happen over night.

Tricky...to be clear there are two, at least, arguments here.

One concerns Andy wholly incorrectly and untypically denying that Derbyshire Dales DC said what they said. They did...there really can be no argument about that...but that, I suppose, is between me and him.

The second is, as you rightly identify, whether Derbyshire Dales and the local government website are correct in that claim.

I have made no comment regarding the second because I just don’t know...like yours, I believe, my knowledge of the HGV business is confined to having lived next door to a truck driver, friend and fellow DCFC supporter for thirty years until 2016.

What the point of my original post was, and what I find relevant and interesting, is that we have a situation where my own Conservative controlled council in the heart of a Brexit supporting area is now blaming Brexit for the shortage of HGV drivers.

Whether they are right or not I don’t know, but that is what they said and it certainly seems to represent a dramatic change of outlook.

Not sure how you can sensibly suggest that the ‘withdrawal’ of workers from the UK including ‘Poles and Romanians’ has ‘bugger all to do with Brexit’, but then the new line would appear to be that the shortage of HGV drivers, the refuse and recycling crisis, the shortage of fruit and veg pickers, the shortage of hospitality industry workers etc and the implementation of ‘Brexit’ are all just a series of coincidences. Regrettably, imo, they aren’t.

[MadAmster]

1. The 17.5 M was the voters who said no
2. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/56846637 it has gone up since
3. It's the EU fault for absorbing all the old soviet bloc countries and upsetting the standard of living in Northern Europe. Free movement has driven it.
4. The 900 000 came from a poltics tv programme. I'll try to find it. Over a year ago, it cleared half a million THAT APPLIED for permanent residency. https://www.romania-insider.com/roma...t-uk-residence


If you want to look at what that does for areas, try this. Avoid Sheffield if you can
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kA-H4ItqOLo

1. what is the relevance of that figure in this debate?
2. Thanks for the clarification
3. I'm struggling to marry what you say. "land owners/supermarkets want it done for next to nothing." wouldn't have happened if the EU hadn't expanded appears to be what you are claiming. Them buggers have wanted front row seats for a tanner for decadea/centuries.
4. clear

5. I always try to avoid Sheffield wherever possible. In the dim.dark and distant past I did visit the football grounds to see the Rams on several occasions and was also a not infrequent visitor to the soul nights at Samantha's. Changed trains there a few times as well. Apart from that, I steered clear.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Ah...the old ‘back out’ trick...again! No idea what’s happened to you Andy but it won’t work. Next you’ll be saying, ‘Oh, I was just joshing rA,’...again! The words used by DDDC were the words I quoted.

The words I quoted were the exact words. Derbyshire Dales wrote yesterday about the refuse collection problem...`this has been compounded by a national shortage of 100,000 HGV drivers as a result of Brexit.’ That is not my opinion it is fact which, despite you initially denying that Brexit was even mentioned, I have provided for you in black and white.

Tell you what...to clear this monumentally boring, but highly relevant, spat up for good...if you still don’t believe they wrote that ‘this has been compounded by a national shortage of 100,000 HGV drivers as a result of Brexit’, you tell us all what they did actually write.

I'm not entering this argument, but would like to note a comment made by comedian Alun Cochrane on the radio last week. He was a remain advocate and voted that way, he said. When the result came in, he was sad - for a day - and then started coping. Seems some of us here still cannot cope years on, placing them firmly outside the Overton Window.

Whatever the reality behind things, Brexit is the easy target scapegot to blame for any failing, and so people will be using it as an excuse for years to come. I farted and followed through yesterday, thanks brexit for causing my underwear to be soiled. Gareth Southgate should have blamed brexit for Euro 2020 failure. This recent sapping spell of hot weather is all the fault of brexit. I expect its the real cause of covid?

Its surely time to stop using brexit as the excuse for failure, and instead man up and do something about it?

[Andy_Faber]

man up

**** SAKE Geoff, ‘person up’!

[ramAnag]

I'm not entering this argument

...he said, clearly entering the argument!

Don’t really ‘get’ your point, GP.

Clearly the condition of your bowels and underwear - a subject which has quite put me off my lunch - along with England’s inability to take penalties and the recent stifling temperatures demonstrably have nothing to do with Brexit.

Equally certainly some ‘problems’ the UK is newly facing - deliveries and refuse collection amongst them - may well be. Shouldn’t we then be pointing this out and trying to remedy the situation? Not sure the rather quaint advice of it being time to ‘man up’ in such circumstances is then entirely appropriate...rather I think it is time to question the reality of what Farage and Johnson were selling five years ago and hold them to account.

[Geoff Parkstone]

I'm not entering your spat with Andy over exact use of words

My observations are simple

1. What someone may or may not have said 5 years ago (to cite your example) is history. No more, no less. There is nothing you or I or anyone else can do about it, short of hiring Stewey Griffin to take you back in time. So why the angst, why waste time and emotional energy in repeatedly whining about the outcomes of Brexit. They are what they are, get over it.

2. Rightly or wrongly people will be blaming brexit for their own inadequacies for the next decade or more. Its the perfect (and very simple) excuse, cannot be proven, cannot be disproven and there will always be an eager audience ready to take it all in. It is the scapegoat to end all scapegoats and until we stop blaming every ill in the country / economy / life on brexit and get on with things, we will remain frozen in time and unable to move forward.

I don't doubt the sincerity and passion with which you hold your views, but you seem like the Japanese soldier fighting on years after the war is over. What's done is done, the battle is lost, what value is there in constantly going back over the same old same old Johnson this Farage that ground? learn to cope, as Cochrane said: it will be better for your mental health!