OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Ram Pant]

Thank goodness for double nationality.

[SithHappens]

Thank goodness for double nationality.

That you Nigel? 🤣🤣

[Ram Pant]

That you Nigel? ����

I can say, unequivocally, and without fear of constipation, that I am not Fartage aka Farridge.

I leave and enter NL on my Cloggy passport, in/out of GB with my GB one.

[swaledale]

I can say, unequivocally, and without fear of constipation, that I am not Fartage aka Farridge.

I leave and enter NL on my Cloggy passport, in/out of GB with my GB one.

International drug smuggler?

[Ram Pant]

International drug smuggler?

Just vinyl records

[SithHappens]

International drug smuggler?

I thought id landed in the Forest thread for a second.

[swaledale]

Just vinyl records

ha ha! Looks like you were wise to keep your UK passport, as it seems fairly soon, those with dual nationality will not be able to enter the UK without a visa, unless they present thier UK passport, or pay something like £580 to ahve a certificate of entitlement attached to their other passport.

Now I ahev nothing against mking sure that only those entitled to enter the Uk enter the UK, but on the face of it, this sems typical officialdom, which actually doesn't achieve its stated purpose, but merely inconvenience people whoa re law abiding.

[Ram Pant]

ha ha! Looks like you were wise to keep your UK passport, as it seems fairly soon, those with dual nationality will not be able to enter the UK without a visa, unless they present thier UK passport, or pay something like £580 to ahve a certificate of entitlement attached to their other passport.

Now I ahev nothing against mking sure that only those entitled to enter the Uk enter the UK, but on the face of it, this sems typical officialdom, which actually doesn't achieve its stated purpose, but merely inconvenience people whoa re law abiding.

If I leave NL on my UK passport, scan it, the border bods see on their screens that I have a Dutch passport and ask why I've not used it. My reply is that I'm entitled to use my UK one. They then stamp it, on the way out and then again back in. Hence I now leave and enter NL using my NL passport and enter/leave the UK on my UK one. Prevents issues.

[SithHappens]

ha ha! Looks like you were wise to keep your UK passport, as it seems fairly soon, those with dual nationality will not be able to enter the UK without a visa, unless they present thier UK passport, or pay something like £580 to ahve a certificate of entitlement attached to their other passport.

Now I ahev nothing against mking sure that only those entitled to enter the Uk enter the UK, but on the face of it, this sems typical officialdom, which actually doesn't achieve its stated purpose, but merely inconvenience people whoa re law abiding.

Well if it makes it a little more of a nuisance for Nigel and his rumoured dual citizenship then its not a bad plan.

[SithHappens]

Wonder how many of these voted brexit and still have no clue https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c995jx34y52o

[MadAmster]

Couldn't remember which thread contained the posts about VAT on private schools. Saw this online and thought it would add to the discussion...

Nobody notices the worn shoes.
In Finnish schools, there is nothing to notice. The child in the fraying sneakers and the child whose parents bought new ones last week sit down to the same hot meal at the same table, open the same textbooks, see the same school nurse, and receive the same education.
Not similar. Not approximately equal.
The same.
Finland decided, a long time ago, that this was not idealism. It was infrastructure.
The decision was made in 1948 — post-war Finland, a country still paying war reparations to the Soviet Union, resettling displaced populations, rebuilding from genuine devastation. Not a wealthy country making a generous gesture. A poor country making a deliberate choice.
Every child would receive a free, hot, nutritious meal at school. Every child. Not the children whose parents qualified for assistance. Not the children who brought in the right form. Every child, regardless of what their family earned or where they came from.
That program is still running today, more than seventy years later. It has never stopped.
At 11:30 on a school day across Finland, children line up — the child of the surgeon and the child of the cleaner, the child who arrived last year speaking no Finnish and the child whose family has been in the same town for generations. They receive the same meal. Hot. Nutritious. Meeting standards set by the National Nutrition Council. Accommodating dietary needs — vegetarian, gluten-free, lactose-free, religious requirements — without paperwork, without stigma, without anyone being marked as different for needing something specific.
No child sits hungry watching classmates eat.
No child counts coins in their pocket hoping it's enough.
No parent chooses between school lunch and the electricity bill.
But the meal is only the beginning.
In Finland, education from the first year of school through the last year of university costs families nothing.
Textbooks: provided. Notebooks, pens, supplies: given to every student. School health services — a nurse, regular check-ups, dental care, vision screening: available at school, no bill sent home. School psychologists and social workers: available to every child who needs them, no referral required, no waiting list that only the persistent navigate. Transportation for students living more than five kilometers from school: covered. Special education support: fully funded, fully integrated, considered a standard part of what schools do rather than an exceptional service families must fight to access.
There are no letters home requesting donations. No fundraising drives to buy library books. No August supply lists that quietly separate the families who can from the families who can't.
The system is funded through taxes — genuinely high taxes, honestly — and in return it genuinely provides. The bargain is straightforward: everyone pays more collectively, and in return no child falls behind because their family can't afford the entry fee.
The philosophy underneath this is not complicated, though it is radical in practice.
Finland decided that a child's potential should not be determined by their parents' income. Not because this is a kind sentiment — though it is — but because it is pragmatically true that society cannot afford to waste human potential based on accidents of birth.
The engineer who will solve the energy problem might be growing up right now in a family that can't afford school supplies. The doctor who will develop the next important treatment might be sitting in a classroom hungry, unable to concentrate on anything except when she'll next eat. The teacher who will inspire thousands of children might drop out of university because the cost of attendance was one thing too many.
Finland decided this was unacceptable. Not as a moral statement. As a national investment calculation.
The results are documented in ways that make the argument easier to make and easier to dismiss, depending on how you approach them.
Finland consistently performs among the top education systems in international assessments — though it's worth noting that its PISA rankings have shifted over the decades, and Finnish educators themselves acknowledge areas for improvement rather than claiming a perfected model. What remains consistently remarkable is not Finland's top scores but its equity: the gap in educational outcomes between wealthy students and poor students is among the smallest of any developed country. The child of a janitor and the child of a doctor do not perform identically, but they perform far more similarly than in almost any comparable nation.
Finnish teachers hold master's degrees. They are trusted to design curriculum and assess student learning without the pressure of constant standardized testing. Teaching is a competitive, respected profession. This matters because good teachers attract other good teachers, and the presence of genuinely skilled educators in every school — not concentrated in wealthier districts — reinforces the equity the system is built to produce.
Students spend less time in formal instruction than peers in many countries, particularly in the early years. There is minimal homework in primary school. There is time to play, to rest, to be children. Finnish children report high life satisfaction and low stress. They are not racing a treadmill of competitive testing from age six. They are learning.
The obvious question about cost deserves a direct answer.
Finnish income taxes are high. The top rate reaches into the low-to-mid fifties percent. VAT is twenty-four percent on most goods. These are real numbers and Finns pay them.
What Finnish families do not pay: university tuition. School supplies. Textbook fees. Fundraiser contributions. Private school tuition for families who have given up on public schools. Out-of-pocket medical costs for routine care. The accumulated thousand small expenses that in other countries add up, quietly and persistently, to a system that rewards families who can afford to pay and penalizes those who cannot.
Whether this represents a better or worse financial deal depends on individual circumstances and values. What it unambiguously represents is a different set of priorities — an agreement, made collectively and renewed through democratic process for more than seventy years, that basic education will not be a market in which some children are better resourced than others.
Finland is not perfect. Finnish educators say so themselves, directly and specifically, which is one of the more encouraging things about the system — a culture of honest evaluation rather than defensive self-promotion.
But Finland has demonstrated something that is genuinely useful to know:
When children are not hungry, they learn better. When children have the same materials as their classmates, they feel they belong. When learning disabilities are identified and supported early rather than discovered late and managed poorly, children who would otherwise fall behind do not. When the quality of a child's education is not determined by their postal code, more children receive a good education.
These are not ideological claims. They are documented outcomes of a system built on a specific premise: that every child is worth investing in, not just the ones whose parents already have resources.
The child in the worn-out shoes walks into a Finnish school.
Nobody notices.
Because there is nothing to notice.
That is not an accident. It is a decision made in 1948 and remade every year since — that the potential inside that child is worth more to Finland's future than the money it would cost to ignore it.
It costs hot lunches and free textbooks and a school nurse who doesn't send bills.
It turns out that's not very much to pay for a child who can actually learn.

[SithHappens]

I have no.idea what schools are like today. Back in my day there was definitely a stigma attached to free school dinners.

The young children in my family circle seem to go to school in a nice environment and the teachers seem OK too. Not sure what it will be like when the move up.

[MadAmster]

I have no.idea what schools are like today. Back in my day there was definitely a stigma attached to free school dinners.

The young children in my family circle seem to go to school in a nice environment and the teachers seem OK too. Not sure what it will be like when the move up.

If every child gets a free lunch, there's nothing to stigmaatise.

[SithHappens]

If every child gets a free lunch, there's nothing to stigmaatise.

Yes totally agree with what you posted.

[ramAnag]

If every child gets a free lunch, there's nothing to stigmaatise.

This is true but, unless you’re going to fully embrace the Finnish system, totally unaffordable. It would involve something like a 75% increase in the cost of school meal funding and you haven’t even touched on ‘breakfast club’ provision yet.

Very much in favour of helping those in the greatest need but why should the country be paying for feeding the children of comfortably/well off parents and guess where the funding will come from?