OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

'Real World' means the world of business, the 'Private sector' as opposed to the fantasy but dangerously powerful world of the public sector. IMO.

Oh God, I so wish that wasn't what you meant. Really thought you had more about you than that. Please not the 'real' world of business versus the make believe world of the 'public sector'.
Having spent my entire working life - writing apart - working in the 'public sector' I really do take exception to this 'wealth creators' equal the real world while we teachers, doctors, nurses, firemen, policemen, social workers, refuse collectors etc just spend it all and live in some sort of idyllic fantasy land.
Had a conversation with a self employed mechanic once. He asked me when I was going to get a 'proper job'. At the time he was fixing cars to earn a living in his own small company set up by his father. I on the other hand was running a school in a disadvantaged area with responsibility for the welfare of all the pupils - obviously - and about forty staff. Course...he was the one with the proper job!
I honestly understand the need for wealth creators...or responsible ones at least...but please don't try and ever tell me that the private sector - including all those wonderful bankers - have a greater role to play in society or grasp of reality than the teachers, doctors and nurses etc mentioned above, 'cos that's just total bollux. Why the **** private and public sector can't just recognise and respect the mutual need for each other I don't know but the 'proper job/real world' comments go a long way to explain it.

Suspect a proper 'can of worms' has just been opened...should get us over the 500 but there may be trouble - and fireworks - ahead.

[swaledale]

Oh God, I so wish that wasn't what you meant. Really thought you had more about you than that. Please not the 'real' world of business versus the make believe world of the 'public sector'.
Having spent my entire working life - writing apart - working in the 'public sector' I really do take exception to this 'wealth creators' equal the real world while we teachers, doctors, nurses, firemen, policemen, social workers, refuse collectors etc just spend it all and live in some sort of idyllic fantasy land.
Had a conversation with a self employed mechanic once. He asked me when I was going to get a 'proper job'. At the time he was fixing cars to earn a living in his own small company set up by his father. I on the other hand was running a school in a disadvantaged area with responsibility for the welfare of all the pupils - obviously - and about forty staff. Course...he was the one with the proper job!
I honestly understand the need for wealth creators...or responsible ones at least...but please don't try and ever tell me that the private sector - including all those wonderful bankers - have a greater role to play in society or grasp of reality than the teachers, doctors and nurses etc mentioned above, 'cos that's just total bollux. Why the **** private and public sector can't just recognise and respect the mutual need for each other I don't know but the 'proper job/real world' comments go a long way to explain it.

Suspect a proper 'can of worms' has just been opened...should get us over the 500 but there may be trouble - and fireworks - ahead.

Triple like, I've worked in both sectors, currently in the private and have been for the last 15 years but words fail me when people make statements like that! Theres good and bad in both and in truth one could not survive without the other but i despiar when comments with a complete lack of perspective like that are made.

[Ram59]

I have to agree, both myself and my wife have worked in both sectors and some people in both sectors are not living in the same world as the rest of us. Our favourite industry, football, to name one.

BTW, back on topic, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me the benefits of staying in Europe, that can't be achieved out of the eu.

[AngryRam]

Yes that was me. the 'what?' was about the angry face, wondered what I'd said.

The angry face goes on all my posts, it's like a signature. It goes with the name.. Been doing it from the start, sort of traditional now.

[roger_ramjet]

The private and public sectors will always have different perspectives on life - after all the former earn the money for the latter to spend. Ne'er the twain shall meet.

Now time to sit back and watch the reaction. Its a bit like the traditional husband and wife roles (now long gone).

NB Apart from a week as a relief postie many years ago Ive never worked in public sector. I am sad to say therefore that I dont have a nationally unaffordable iron clad pension now!

[AngryRam]

Split household at Chateau Angry.. The wife teaches and spends MY dosh..
Cow..

[Andy_Faber]

Oh God, I so wish that wasn't what you meant.
Suspect a proper 'can of worms' has just been opened...should get us over the 500 but there may be trouble - and fireworks - ahead.

I did try (clearly not to well!) to make it clear I didn't mean those who add value, and apologies if that was the impression I gave, I was aiming my observation elsewhere. I accept your disdain for 'bankers', and they like me wouldn't know a proper job if it smacked them in the balls, but on the subject of 'bankers' who ultimately was it that let them off the hook for committing the criminal act of bankrupting the country? My answer would be politicians (public sector), the police (public sector) and the judiciary (public sector). Maybe I should have used the phrase 'public sector bureaucrats', and for that group I think my comment stands, I think there are unwritten rules and motivations at play that serve to hold back businesses - and for that matter that schools, you clearly have experience of that, maybe you've never come across any perverse decisions that have held you back.

[swaledale]

I have to agree, both myself and my wife have worked in both sectors and some people in both sectors are not living in the same world as the rest of us. Our favourite industry, football, to name one.

BTW, back on topic, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me the benefits of staying in Europe, that can't be achieved out of the eu.

TBH Ram59 its been done to death in this thread and I certainly cant be arsed to explain and suspect Anagram wont be either.

Free movement of labour capital goods and services has certainly boosted the UK economy -the question is what deal can be struck outside that arrangement?

[swaledale]

I did try (clearly not to well!) to make it clear I didn't mean those who add value, and apologies if that was the impression I gave, I was aiming my observation elsewhere. I accept your disdain for 'bankers', and they like me wouldn't know a proper job if it smacked them in the balls, but on the subject of 'bankers' who ultimately was it that let them off the hook for committing the criminal act of bankrupting the country? My answer would be politicians (public sector), the police (public sector) and the judiciary (public sector). Maybe I should have used the phrase 'public sector bureaucrats', and for that group I think my comment stands, I think there are unwritten rules and motivations at play that serve to hold back businesses - and for that matter that schools, you clearly have experience of that, maybe you've never come across any perverse decisions that have held you back.

I've come across many peverse decisions, odd rules and devious dealings in every level of society, its a human condition - the politicians are not really the public sector - the judiciary for all that its not perfect (what is?) is better than prbabely any other system in the world.

Its politics that has the agenda whether with a big P or a small p that stands in he way, but thats human nature as history shows.

In truth its power and how that power is exercised, not openly and democratically but unseen that is the issue

[ramAnag]

The private and public sectors will always have different perspectives on life - after all the former earn the money for the latter to spend. Ne'er the twain shall meet.

Now time to sit back and watch the reaction. Its a bit like the traditional husband and wife roles (now long gone).

NB Apart from a week as a relief postie many years ago Ive never worked in public sector. I am sad to say therefore that I dont have a nationally unaffordable iron clad pension now!

But why must it be a case of 'ne'er the twain shall meet' Roger, surely that's the point? Why should there be such resentment which festers into the sore of, only those in the private sector live in the 'real world'.
I respect the private sector wealth creators, so long as these bosses treat their employees fairly, but where would they be without educators, health providers, law upholders, rubbish collectors etc? Despite the Thatcherist nonsense...that's what defines 'society' imo.
As for 'iron clad pensions'. Okay my pension is not at the 'mercy' of the stock market in quite the same way as some because my Union - for once - cut a good deal with the government of the day. Equally my wife and I benefit from a 'comfortable' - far from outstanding -pension but then between us we worked full time for something like 68 years and trained, again between us, for eight years before that.
I'd also point out that two of my kids and my son in law work in the private sector. They all benefit from free private health care and have very beneficial car finance and petrol purchasing facilities. It's swings and roundabouts. We need wealth creators and we need 'service providers' just as much...but nothing is more 'real world' than working in an operating theatre, putting a road accident victim back together again, dealing with victims - and perpetrators - of child abuse or tackling a violent offender...not too much of that in the 'private' sector.

[roger_ramjet]

But why must it be a case of 'ne'er the twain shall meet' Roger, surely that's the point? Why should there be such resentment which festers into the sore of, only those in the private sector live in the 'real world'.
I respect the private sector wealth creators, so long as these bosses treat their employees fairly, but where would they be without educators, health providers, law upholders, rubbish collectors etc? Despite the Thatcherist nonsense...that's what defines 'society' imo.
As for 'iron clad pensions'. Okay my pension is not at the 'mercy' of the stock market in quite the same way as some because my Union - for once - cut a good deal with the government of the day. Equally my wife and I benefit from a 'comfortable' - far from outstanding -pension but then between us we worked full time for something like 68 years and trained, again between us, for eight years before that.
I'd also point out that two of my kids and my son in law work in the private sector. They all benefit from free private health care and have very beneficial car finance and petrol purchasing facilities. It's swings and roundabouts. We need wealth creators and we need 'service providers' just as much...but nothing is more 'real world' than working in an operating theatre, putting a road accident victim back together again, dealing with victims - and perpetrators - of child abuse or tackling a violent offender...not too much of that in the 'private' sector.

To answer your last point first, if your beloved EU tied us into TTIP then the private sector pretty soon would be putting back together those road accident victims in a privatised, pay per plaster, NHS.

I have never said that those in the public sector do not live in the real world - that was said elsewhere - but the attitudes of the two halves of our society will never be the same, since their raison d'etre's are quite different. The public sector provide a service (often free to user) and traditionally have valued that service over cost since historically they do not have to generate the income they spend. That is changing and accountability has been creeping up on these sectors for many years now. Those currently in these sectors are now responsible for budgets and cannot spend willy nilly - reality has descended on them slowly.

The private sector is however equally changing. As wealth creators for the nation it was all about profits - but see Southern Rail situation: if you neglect service eventually your consumers will rebel and profitability suffer. In the same way the public sector needed to adopt financial responsibility, so to do the private sector have to accept quality standards.

The two are thus coming closer together, and in another generation or so there may be little difference, BUT historically the two elements of society were poles apart philosophically and today they are still different: but those differences are changing and the gap closing.

As for the ironclad pensions - they were always the makeweight in the equation where private sector salaries were higher than public sector salaries. Problem is that as public sector salaries closed the gap and in many cases now enjoy higher salaries than their equivalents in the private sector, the pension advantage was not "handed back". The public sector unions did a great job for the members in this regard, but a really poor deal for the nation as a whole and "fairness" between pensioners. Is this the socialist dream I wonder - better pensions for some?

[ramAnag]

My beloved EU, Rog? Thought you voted 'Remain' too...and I'm not blind to its shortcomings, just prefer us to be 'in' than 'out'.
Didn't intend to imply that you made the 'real world' comment.
Obviously recognise the difference between private and public but don't think the respective outlooks have to be mutually exclusive or that the private sector has to be resentful of the public sector providing services which are an outgoing from the wealth they produce.
Just like any 'household', society has to meet the cost of certain ***** services and those that provide them should be respected and rewarded accordingly imo.
As for public sector 'accountability' I don't think this is anything new. The first two decades or so of my working like coincided with Thatcherism. There was virtually no money in education. The roof leaked continually, there was no money for equipment and pay rises were constantly overtaken by extortionate mortgage rate and 'community tax'/rate rises. When Blair came along - and I'm not defending his Middle East strategy - it was like a breath of fresh air. Suddenly schools were being fixed up, new ones built, courses were, like industry, run in hotels rather than semi decrepit old buildings and we felt 'valued', but I'm sure the vast majority of public sector managers felt the need to remain 'accountable'.
On the pension front, I possibly don't know enough to comment although one of my best friends spent his whole working life at Rolls Royce with a similar, though different, level of responsibility to me and our pensions seem much the same although he of course also had the option of taking shares too.
Better pensions for some? I'm not sure, but might there not be a case for the 'state' making reasonable provision for those who have spent all or much of their working lives 'serving' it. Certainly find it ridiculous that trainee teachers and doctors these days have to pay so much for their training only to then spend their working lives working for the public good. Not surprised so many 'jump ship'.

[roger_ramjet]

" Certainly find it ridiculous that trainee teachers and doctors these days have to pay so much for their training only to then spend their working lives working for the public good."


I dont see why doctors or teachers etc should get a discount on student loans, just because they are going to work for the state. So what happens when a teacher joins a private school or a doctor goes to work overseas - do they suddenly lose the training discount they have already had? What about an accountant that decides to spend his later years as FD for an NHS Trust - does he suddenly get a tax credit because he has repaid his student loan already? Bizarre - not sure you thought this one through!

You may as well suggest that such individuals should be exempt from tax because they are going to serve the country!

[ramAnag]

Hadn't thought of tax exemption...brilliant idea...can you arrange a retrospective rebate please?

Seriously though, it does seem a little absurd that those who remain with the NHS and what is effectively the NES have to put themselves in significant debt these days in order to then 'serve' society for their working lives. Think I left college owing the NatWest about £100. Graduates these days leave owing tens of thousands. If you're then going to work for the state can that be right?
Maybe I haven't thought it through or maybe I'm just being contentious because the thread is stalling a bit in the 350's, but I would have thought some 'incentive' could be provided to prevent the drain to the private health and education sectors and this might be a way.

[swaledale]

Hadn't thought of tax exemption...brilliant idea...can you arrange a retrospective rebate please?

Seriously though, it does seem a little absurd that those who remain with the NHS and what is effectively the NES have to put themselves in significant debt these days in order to then 'serve' society for their working lives. Think I left college owing the NatWest about £100. Graduates these days leave owing tens of thousands. If you're then going to work for the state can that be right?
Maybe I haven't thought it through or maybe I'm just being contentious because the thread is stalling a bit in the 350's, but I would have thought some 'incentive' could be provided to prevent the drain to the private health and education sectors and this might be a way.

Pensions! OMG thats a can of worms - but again we have people who can only see things from their own perspective! Those in the private sector (one that is heavily reliant on the public sector to educate their workforce, provide the infrastructure they use) cocking a snoot (theres a phrase!) at those in the public sector! The whole pension issue is complicated and would take up more than 500 posts to explain - but firms stopping contributions in the good years when there were surpluses, people taking "ill health retirement" in their 50's (and often then getting another job!) Firm "borrowing" pension funds - mm Maxwell rears his bloated corpse here and chronic misselling mismanagement, plus we all live longer oh and Gordon Brown with his raid on pensions are just a few factors.

Oh Roger, the reason that medical students get offered preferential terms is that we are chronically short of doctors and nurses (Thats why we have to recruit from overseas) and in the long run its cheaper to train your own!

But then this government seems determined to piss off the new doctors and persuade them some other country might be more welcoming!