OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Andy_Faber]

Surely Swale's point is that, what is (or was) a good thing for the EU would also be a good thing for the the people of the UK and the other independent nation states that make up the EU. How is it not a good thing for people to have their horizons extended by feeling able to work in other countries knowing that their employment conditions will be protected by EU law and that they will be entitled to free health care?

You are both answering a different question! I AGREE that its 'a good thing for people to have their horizons extended by feeling able to work in other countries knowing that their employment conditions will be protected' but that DOESN'T require free movement of labour. It only requires that where a real job exists, its up for grabs to the best person from wherever.

[Andy_Faber]

Roger, very well put.

[ramAnag]

Trouble is, everyone is able to extend their horizons including convicted rapists, *** offenders and other non desirables. Remember, you are relying on other eu states granting eu citizenship to the right illegal immigrants.

Us leaving does not mean that we cannot access the single market, that we cannot have a certain amount of freedom of movement and that the eu states may not go to war with each other!

'Xenophobia' def; 'Having a deep rooted mistrust and fear of foreigners'.

Why is it that every time mention is made of people from 'abroad' the likes of you and Tricky automatically go into 'lowest common denominator' mode? It's like that old 'word - association - football' sketch. I'll say 'foreigner' and you'll say...'convicted rapist'. I'll mention 'Muslim' and you'll come up with....'terrorist' or '*** offender'. What the hell has gone on with you to make you react like that?

I understand that we have to protect ourselves against trouble makers and undesirables. I understand that we should have the right to deport individuals who break our laws or threaten the stability of our society. I understand the intelligent arguments put forward by the likes of RR and the sometimes more pedantic ones introduced by Andy. I understand, even though I still believe that the Referendum was a ridiculous excercise in national 'self harm', that there are two sides to the Brexit argument, but I will never understand the xenophobic hatred that you regularly introduce to this forum.

[Andy_Faber]

Very interestingly, the labour leadership wallah, Owen Smith stated on Newsnight last night that he believes that the UK should looby/negotiate hard to 'do a deal' for free movement of goods and services WITHOUT free movement of labour. Easy for him to say in opposition but maybe a hint of the nature of the negotiations to come.

[ramAnag]

Bound too isn't he Andy? His role would be to try and rescue our trading ability from the 'wreckage' of the Brexit vote whilst simultaneously trying to win back the support of voters in the Labour 'heartlands' who focussed on the impact of immigration.

[roger_ramjet]

He would say that it he wants to defeat Corbyn and appeal to the large number of roots labour supporters who voted out. He has found a superhero "I'll save your jobs by keeping the foreigners out" bullet to win the leadership election. Cynically I would suggest he knows he cant deliver but that isnt his concern unless he gets over the first hurdle of party leadership.

[Gaspode]

This man twists and turns more than a twisty-turny thing - and seems to be continually making up 'policy' on the fly - complete lack of credibility for someone that has delusions of being PM one day.....

[AdiSalisbury]

On the subject of free movement and Rog's point on equal economies for it to work, the minimum wage is a good indicator of pro's and cons in this area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_minimum_wage

I may be wrong, but I'm also pretty sure that minimum wage isn't a term (yet) of EU membership, and I do think that a lot has been made of employment law when I suspect very little will change, as our laws are in the most part more beneficial than EU minimums. Perhaps the working time regs 48 hour week being hit, I can't see much else changing.

[Andy_Faber]

On the subject of free movement and Rog's point on equal economies for it to work, the minimum wage is a good indicator of pro's and cons in this area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_minimum_wage

I may be wrong, but I'm also pretty sure that minimum wage isn't a term (yet) of EU membership, and I do think that a lot has been made of employment law when I suspect very little will change, as our laws are in the most part more beneficial than EU minimums. Perhaps the working time regs 48 hour week being hit, I can't see much else changing.

I think that's very enlightening, and makes a bit of a mockery of the idea proposed by some remainers that 'free movement is a two way street'. Who would WANT to move from UK to, for instance, Rumania? And as well as not accounting for the lack of adherance to such minimums across Europe, it actually (correct me if I'm wrong) doesn't account for the high percentage in many countries who have an income of zero ie they are unemployed.

[roger_ramjet]

So there we have it. Two central planks of economic union not working because not all members of the federation are equal. The Euro - massively favouring the strong economies in the Union whose exports seem cheap. Movement of Labour massively favouring workers from the weak economies, but those weak economies will suffer a "brain drain". What a great basis for a federal Europe. If you could have designed it, you couldnt have got it more wrong - what? you mean it was designed?

Now if we are talking long term, and I mean 50+ years, economics may level out these arenas. The weaker economies may strengthen and the stronger get weaker (well apart from Germany which seems bullet proof).

But who is prepared to wait that long and suffer perceived inequalities as their economic strengths decline whilst the (eg) Bulgarian one strengthens? No generation will accept that - noone is so comitted to Union that they will stand for a lifetime of decline to allow other nations to catch up. When you are at the top of the food chain do you really want to surrender that position so that some impalas have a chance to avoid being eaten. I think not

[Andy_Faber]

Now you've buggered it roger, we'll never get to 500 now

[roger_ramjet]

well 477 wasnt a bad effort!

[southernram22]

im still up for it after seeing a guy in street with a tee shirt exclaiming brexit has ruined my future . nearly said the rivers that way .

[ramAnag]

Roger Ramjet...who'd a thunk it! The secret to life, the Universe and everything...well the answer to a major problem with the EU at least...and it's not 42!
Good post, sir. We've had our (healthy and constructive) differences of opinion but I applaud your reasoning. Could have saved it for #500 but I guess 'Manofpride' might be waiting for that honour having started it all.
In the meantime, maybe young Ramjet could take over from Jean Claude.

[roger_ramjet]

Roger Ramjet...who'd a thunk it! The secret to life, the Universe and everything...well the answer to a major problem with the EU at least...and it's not 42!
Good post, sir. We've had our (healthy and constructive) differences of opinion but I applaud your reasoning. Could have saved it for #500 but I guess 'Manofpride' might be waiting for that honour having started it all.
In the meantime, maybe young Ramjet could take over from Jean Claude.

van Damme?