OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

Understand the momentum behind 'limiting immigration' as part of the Brexit process, even though I don't entirely agree with the rationale, but it's odd that two leading Brexiteers should be raising this challenge via objection to leaving the Single Market. Was it the electorate's (37% of them) intention to leave the SM or did they just not have a clue?
Anyway I'm anti-French for the next forty minutes or so and hope that England wake up, most disorganised I've seen them under Eddie Jones.

[Andy_Faber]

I would entirely agree with that final point Andy, ans surprisingly find myselt supportive of something of Welsh origins.

'That's Racist!!!'

[Andy_Faber]

Understand the momentum behind 'limiting immigration' as part of the Brexit process, even though I don't entirely agree with the rationale, but it's odd that two leading Brexiteers should be raising this challenge via objection to leaving the Single Market. Was it the electorate's (37% of them) intention to leave the SM or did they just not have a clue?

The insight I was going to offer, based on flawed research with overwhelming statistics, is along the lines that a significant minority of that minority weren't voting on an EU issue at all. This minority of a minority very much had a clue and were making the ultimate protest vote, it was 'the establishment' that didn't have a clue.

[ramAnag]

The insight I was going to offer, based on flawed research with overwhelming statistics, is along the lines that a significant minority of that minority weren't voting on an EU issue at all. This minority of a minority very much had a clue and were making the ultimate protest vote, it was 'the establishment' that didn't have a clue.

Think that's what Swale and I, amongst others, have been saying since the result.
Wonder if the Twickenham Tory boys will acknowledge their debt to yet another 'immigrant' this afternoon.

[Andy_Faber]

Think that's what Swale and I, amongst others, have been saying since the result.
Wonder if the Twickenham Tory boys will acknowledge their debt to yet another 'immigrant' this afternoon.

I am in Spain and avoiding the result so I can watch it in ignorance when I get home tomorrow. Or I was....

[Andy_Faber]

Think that's what Swale and I, amongst others, have been saying since the result.
Wonder if the Twickenham Tory boys will acknowledge their debt to yet another 'immigrant' this afternoon.

Now there's something I REALLY don't like - national sporting teams importing non-natives primarily to improve their sporting strength. I'm a cricket nut but switched off totally when half England's team were South Africans

[roger_ramjet]

You mean our immigrants were better than their immigrants. Am I alone in wanting an end to mercenary rugby nation switchers (and cricket)? The French "back three" being 2 Fijians and a South African although our south pacific brothers were missing

[roger_ramjet]

Ah not alone it seems AF

[Andy_Faber]

Ah not alone it seems AF

I hate it. I'm not a nationalist but am a patriot, and while I can see, for instance, Chris Martin qualifying for Scotland, the situation in rugby is ridiculous.

[ramAnag]

I am in Spain and avoiding the result so I can watch it in ignorance when I get home tomorrow. Or I was....

Oops...sorry. You might be surprised anyway.

[swaledale]

Nice considered reply, you should become Swale's life coach. I think you missed my point re the LD's and government, I think there's a slim chance that labour will implode so badly the LD's might be the second biggest party in 2020, but I also think the LD's might hold the balance of power a la 2010. I think earlier you agreed that was a possibility. Swale appears to just hate them based on a previous slight I can't remember.

The problem with the wish in your last sentence is that those politicians are a reflection of the way the populace is moving. I've been meaning to share some insights I have through my strange collection of facebook 'friends', which suggest the conservatories and UKIP might actually be BEHIND the feeling of a big wodge of the UKIP population, and it would be an observation not a stance, but given recent spats I'll hold off for a while.

As for article 127, resistence to it will just get voted down, limiting immigration is a ***** component of anything the govt are planning for Brexit and ultimately they will close ranks and all (but Ken Clarke) will vote as one. My own view on the whole thing is that if EU allowed a modification to 'the free movement of people' to be 'the free movement of people who have a job offer and free movement of dependants not guaranteed' (as proposed by the Welsh Assembly as it happens) then I reckon someone in power would be looking to strike a deal at that point. Just IMO.

Life coach?? What because I get ****ed off with lazy simplistic statements like "Labour bankrupted the country"?

And as point of correction you did not imply there was a slim chance that Labour would implode badly!

My dislike of the Lib Dems is based on

1. Going into coalition with the Tories, when either a minority coalition with labour or not going into coalition and being the party that held the balance of power with tory minority government would have been an ethical choice and reflected the views of the majority of their voters, instead they shamelessly grabbed a chance to be in power albeit as a junior partner in government and then proceeded to renege on their election pledges in return for such things as an alternative voting sysytem where the Tories outflanked and showed them for the rank amateurs they were!

Thats why the party got justly whupped at the last election, because their voters did not expect them to do that and when a party gets it that wrong and demonstrates they do not understand why people vote for them, then they tend to get slaughtered at the next election and deservedly so!

Then you have Cables botched sell off of the Post office -something even Thatcher would not contemplate - at a price well below market value and making the banks they had enlisted to help the sale making millions, so you and me and the rest of Uk tax payers lost out and picked up the bill for the pension scheme.

Then of course we had Danny Alexander claiming rent for his second home that he just "forgot" he had rented to his mate!

It will take the LD's at least two or three elections before they even get double digit numbers of MP's again!

Not sure I buy that the majority of the population are feeling nationalistic, imperialistic or isolationist -its a sizeable proportion, but no more than 30%, but of course politicians pander to these because that % can make a great difference depending upon where the votes are.

As for Trump...he lost the popular vote so not a majority of people and many who voted or chose not to vote were repulsed by Clinton, the Democrats ****ed up pretty bad putting her up! Pretty soon people will realise that he does not have a clue and his way of governing will not be a solution, rather it will be chaos, my prediction is he will not last 4 years!

As for Brexit, theres a good deal of horse trading to come, May is pandering to her eurosceptics at the moment, don't be surprised if the deal looks very different from what she is currently saying.

[swaledale]

I hate it. I'm not a nationalist but am a patriot, and while I can see, for instance, Chris Martin qualifying for Scotland, the situation in rugby is ridiculous.

Have to say that this sort of stuff, did it not start with Zola Budd becoming "British" so she could run in the Olympics makes a mockery, but then what does playing for ones country actually mean these days? There are Turks playing for germany, brazilians for POrtugal, Spain and germany its based on citizenship rather than where they were born - a sign of the times I'm afraid and a reality of the world without borders in which we live.

[ramAnag]

Have to say that this sort of stuff, did it not start with Zola Budd becoming "British" so she could run in the Olympics makes a mockery, but then what does playing for ones country actually mean these days? There are Turks playing for germany, brazilians for POrtugal, Spain and germany its based on citizenship rather than where they were born - a sign of the times I'm afraid and a reality of the world without borders in which we live.

Wasn't going to offer to be your 'life coach' anyway Swale...don't think you need one. .
Think Basil D'Oliveira was a while before Zola Budd but I really liked him. Isn't there a case for saying that it is not unreasonable for players to represent the country where they have developed their sporting skills? Of course Mo Farah may still not quite fit...a Somalian who seems to live and train in the U.S...until President Spray Tan says otherwise, but at least the U.K. was his properly adopted country from quite an early age.

[Ram59]

Life coach?? What because I get ****ed off with lazy simplistic statements like "Labour bankrupted the country"?

And as point of correction you did not imply there was a slim chance that Labour would implode badly!

My dislike of the Lib Dems is based on

1. Going into coalition with the Tories, when either a minority coalition with labour or not going into coalition and being the party that held the balance of power with tory minority government would have been an ethical choice and reflected the views of the majority of their voters, instead they shamelessly grabbed a chance to be in power albeit as a junior partner in government and then proceeded to renege on their election pledges in return for such things as an alternative voting sysytem where the Tories outflanked and showed them for the rank amateurs they were!

Thats why the party got justly whupped at the last election, because their voters did not expect them to do that and when a party gets it that wrong and demonstrates they do not understand why people vote for them, then they tend to get slaughtered at the next election and deservedly so!

Then you have Cables botched sell off of the Post office -something even Thatcher would not contemplate - at a price well below market value and making the banks they had enlisted to help the sale making millions, so you and me and the rest of Uk tax payers lost out and picked up the bill for the pension scheme.

Then of course we had Danny Alexander claiming rent for his second home that he just "forgot" he had rented to his mate!

It will take the LD's at least two or three elections before they even get double digit numbers of MP's again!

Not sure I buy that the majority of the population are feeling nationalistic, imperialistic or isolationist -its a sizeable proportion, but no more than 30%, but of course politicians pander to these because that % can make a great difference depending upon where the votes are.

As for Trump...he lost the popular vote so not a majority of people and many who voted or chose not to vote were repulsed by Clinton, the Democrats ****ed up pretty bad putting her up! Pretty soon people will realise that he does not have a clue and his way of governing will not be a solution, rather it will be chaos, my prediction is he will not last 4 years!

As for Brexit, theres a good deal of horse trading to come, May is pandering to her eurosceptics at the moment, don't be surprised if the deal looks very different from what she is currently saying.

I agree to part of your last paragraph. I too think that the final deal will end up not that much different to what we have now. A so called hard brexit is bad for both sides. So a deal will be made where both sides will be able to claim some success. We will get some control over immigration at the expense of a small tarif on the single market. But it's not a case of May pandering to her eurosceptics, it's basic negotiation tactics, you ask for far more than you expect and negotiate down.

All this rubbish talk of May going for a hard brexit is wrong. If she's was truly going for a hard brexit, she would be saying that there will be no discussion and that we're leaving and not interested the eu in any way.

[Andy_Faber]

.....I too think that the final deal will end up not that much different to what we have now. A so called hard brexit is bad for both sides. So a deal will be made where both sides will be able to claim some success. We will get some control over immigration at the expense of a small tarif on the single market. But it's not a case of May pandering to her eurosceptics, it's basic negotiation tactics, you ask for far more than you expect and negotiate down.

That is where I hope and think we will end up. If only we could get our sh*t together on our side of the table and talk with a single voice I think we will do well, I think the very fact that there will be 28 voices on the other side (27 plus 'the management', Tusk etc) will weaken their position, there was some evidence of vastly differing views coming out of the EU summit over the weekend.