OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

C'mon guys. You are two of the most knowledgeable around on this subject, albeit from slightly different perspectives. If you two can't discuss without recourse to something resembling a playground squabble what hope is there for the rest of the country?

Anyway...isn't Article 127 the main question now?

[roger_ramjet]

But Miss, he spat at me

[ramAnag]

But Miss, he spat at me

Exactly...but please don't call me 'Miss'.

[swaledale]

Anag anyone who says, i voted for the Tory's because Labour bankrupted the nation, this being a labour government that was only slightly to the left of Thatcher remember! Loses all credibility, its not an even remotely true or factual statement!

1. Labour did not create the economic crash of 2008
2. The country would have been bankrupt and in the same state as many other countries if Labour hadn't acted decisively.
3. The Tories would have acted no differently and indeed supported whole heartedly the economic strategy - well it was virtually the same as theirs of course they may not have used the money gained in the good years for social reform or the NHS or education but hey they sure made sure who was going to pay for the misdeeds and crimes (not that many have been convicted)
4.If labour was so ****ing bad on the ecomony, what about holding cameron and osbourne to account for the fact that austerity failed, all their targets were missed?
As for the LIb Dems, not a ****ing hope that they will form the opposition, utter poppy cock and plainly so, that and his very elegant cherry picking of my post - ignoring the context of the remarks says it all really!

Anyway we now have a Tory government that has made it clear the number one priority is NOT the economy but immigration, just hope those who voted Brexit believe that the end result will be worth it!

[ramAnag]

Swale...you're preaching to the converted with me and I agree with all your four points. For what it's worth, what pisses me off is when otherwise intelligent and articulate posters start name calling and such like. There's a debate to be had and the one on here has been better than many. Even Ram59 and I have been known to agree on somethings and we were diametrically opposed to begin with...or seemed to be!
Actually your comment about those who voted for Brexit on the basis of immigration not being disappointed is depressingly accurate as I fear that for a majority of the 37% minority (aka 'the voice of the people'...not), immigration was the main issue. Anyway...back to the current court case over article 127...actually brought by a Brexiteer apparently. Any hope of the damage to our economy being minimised by this?

[mistaram]

Swales your spot on with all 4 points Only support people without a brain would blame Labour for the Global crisis no Leiham Brothers no crash I'm unusual I suppose a business owning socialist Although I'm finding it hard to continuing to support Labour with Corbyn in charge As for the Lib Dems not for me any who can vote for NHS reform bill is not for me

[ramAnag]

Swales your spot on with all 4 points Only support people without a brain would blame Labour for the Global crisis no Leiham Brothers no crash I'm unusual I suppose a business owning socialist Although I'm finding it hard to continuing to support Labour with Corbyn in charge As for the Lib Dems not for me any who can vote for NHS reform bill is not for me

Agree with that mista. Imagine Corbyn is a thoroughly decent man and someone who could play a valuable role in society. Unfortunately, imo, he's been a total disaster as leader of the Labour Party and if he doesn't go soon I suspect we'll see the end of Labour and the emergence of a new coalition party. May not be a bad thing either, again imo.

[Andy_Faber]

C'mon guys. You are two of the most knowledgeable around on this subject, albeit from slightly different perspectives. If you two can't discuss without recourse to something resembling a playground squabble what hope is there for the rest of the country?

Anyway...isn't Article 127 the main question now?

No squabbling here, and note that I'd backed off already in a futile attempt to get Swale off his platinum-plated soapbox. Also note that the post that lit Swale's blue touch paper was actually addressed at you and you took it in good spirit.

[Andy_Faber]

Anag anyone who says, i voted for the Tory's because Labour bankrupted the nation, this being a labour government that was only slightly to the left of Thatcher remember! Loses all credibility, its not an even remotely true or factual statement!

1. Labour did not create the economic crash of 2008
2. The country would have been bankrupt and in the same state as many other countries if Labour hadn't acted decisively.
3. The Tories would have acted no differently and indeed supported whole heartedly the economic strategy - well it was virtually the same as theirs of course they may not have used the money gained in the good years for social reform or the NHS or education but hey they sure made sure who was going to pay for the misdeeds and crimes (not that many have been convicted)
4.If labour was so ****ing bad on the ecomony, what about holding cameron and osbourne to account for the fact that austerity failed, all their targets were missed?
As for the LIb Dems, not a ****ing hope that they will form the opposition, utter poppy cock and plainly so, that and his very elegant cherry picking of my post - ignoring the context of the remarks says it all really!

Anyway we now have a Tory government that has made it clear the number one priority is NOT the economy but immigration, just hope those who voted Brexit believe that the end result will be worth it!

In a spirit of peacemaking, here's a considered response to your points

1, AGREED they didn't singlehandedly create it but it happened on their watch, and they weren't watchful enough
2, AGREED but it was all too late - a bit like Liverpool's goalie the other night, no use saving a pen when you've already let a howler in.
3, AGREED but they weren't in power so they got my protest vote - what did you want me to do? Vote LD?
4, AGREED their target setting/forecasting/predicting was atrocious, and I'd throw in the Bank Of England in that same pot, Mark Carney's continued ability to remain calm in the face of repeated failed predictions amazes me.
5(?), Well we'll see, I note Ramanag says sort of the same thing in a later post. Come back and take the piss in 2020
6(?), Cherry picking - that's just the frustrated Daily Mail Editor in me shining through. AND I missed one!

[Ram59]

Yes, Gordon Brown was a god and everything he did wrong was because the Tories backed him and everything he did right was against the Tories.

The facts show that in the last 5 years of labour our growth was worse than the eu average in 4 and fractionally better in 1. So much for us coping better than everyone else. Incidently, since the Tories have been in power our growth has by far exceeded the eu average in every year.

[swaledale]

Swales your spot on with all 4 points Only support people without a brain would blame Labour for the Global crisis no Leiham Brothers no crash I'm unusual I suppose a business owning socialist Although I'm finding it hard to continuing to support Labour with Corbyn in charge As for the Lib Dems not for me any who can vote for NHS reform bill is not for me

Your not as rare as might be thought, not all business people are selfish *******s intent on screwing their employees and making money others expense, history shows that the great business philanthropists actually did more socially good work than many so called socialist governments!

I know what you mean about Corbyn, though this does pose a question - people moan about sharp suited, PR savvy slick politicians, yet seem to dislike Corbyn even more, whenever whatever you think of his views, he is at least honest about them and they are genuinely held, unfortunately he is not a leader in any sense of the word, more the left wing conscience in the style of aka Benn or Skinner - but what depresses me more was that in the first leadership contest, instead of the other candidates explaining how they were the better choice, just focussed on attacking him which proved rather a big mistake.

All parties have these cycles, the Tories had their succession of piss poor leaders, and the current Lib Dem leader is equally inept and forgettable, eventually there will be a realisation that Corbyn won't win an election and things will change.

[ramAnag]

In a spirit of peacemaking, here's a considered response to your points

1, AGREED they didn't singlehandedly create it but it happened on their watch, and they weren't watchful enough
2, AGREED but it was all too late - a bit like Liverpool's goalie the other night, no use saving a pen when you've already let a howler in.
3, AGREED but they weren't in power so they got my protest vote - what did you want me to do? Vote LD?
4, AGREED their target setting/forecasting/predicting was atrocious, and I'd throw in the Bank Of England in that same pot, Mark Carney's continued ability to remain calm in the face of repeated failed predictions amazes me.
5(?), Well we'll see, I note Ramanag says sort of the same thing in a later post. Come back and take the piss in 2020
6(?), Cherry picking - that's just the frustrated Daily Mail Editor in me shining through. AND I missed one!

Actually Andy, there's a lot of point in Liverpool's 'goalie' saving a penalty after letting a howler in...if he hadn't they'd have lost!
With the best will in the world I'm not sure what Gordon Brown or Labour could have done about a crisis that started amongst greedy bankers in the USA. Happened on their watch? That's like blaming Blair for the London Underground bombing or McClaren for Hughes' hamstring injury.
Not sure why you're surprised Swale and I differ over the Lib Dems. We see eye to eye on many things but are not joined at the hip. All I said was that I, like you, voted Lib Dem at the last election and I think they got a tough press during the days of the coalition government. Not over impressed with their latest leader, bit like Corbyn...nice man but not very impressive as a leader. Don't think they've got a hope in hell of forming the next government but if things continue as they are I can see a scenario where a new coalition opposition - including the LD's - becomes an initially uneasy party of government. Frankly anything that gets rid of the selfish, heartless and compassionless politics espoused by the right of the Tory party, UKIP and Trump can only be an improvement.
Anyway...article 127...thoughts?

[swaledale]

Yes, Gordon Brown was a god and everything he did wrong was because the Tories backed him and everything he did right was against the Tories.

The facts show that in the last 5 years of labour our growth was worse than the eu average in 4 and fractionally better in 1. So much for us coping better than everyone else. Incidently, since the Tories have been in power our growth has by far exceeded the eu average in every year.

Yeah and the financial crash happened in 2008, midway through Labours last term! You need also to look at what labour invested in, schools infrastructure, health when they inherited a a very low investment threshold.

Ah so Brown's actions - who was a better technocrat chancellor than a leader did not stop a bad situation becoming a dire one? Come off it, we would be in exactly the same state as some countries a cross the water if he hadn't acted decisively in 2008.

As for the growth being higher in the Uk than in europe under the Tories, thats 1. down to the effect of the euro which means micro economic changes are a problem for those in the euro,2. the fact that the UK took swift action on the banking crisis - europe is still going through this nearly a decade later, 3. starting two years after an economic crash, I'd say the only way is up and comparing say the performance of Chelsea against Burton Albion is a little disingenious!

[Andy_Faber]

Actually Andy, there's a lot of point in Liverpool's 'goalie' saving a penalty after letting a howler in...if he hadn't they'd have lost!
With the best will in the world I'm not sure what Gordon Brown or Labour could have done about a crisis that started amongst greedy bankers in the USA. Happened on their watch? That's like blaming Blair for the London Underground bombing or McClaren for Hughes' hamstring injury.
Not sure why you're surprised Swale and I differ over the Lib Dems. We see eye to eye on many things but are not joined at the hip. All I said was that I, like you, voted Lib Dem at the last election and I think they got a tough press during the days of the coalition government. Not over impressed with their latest leader, bit like Corbyn...nice man but not very impressive as a leader. Don't think they've got a hope in hell of forming the next government but if things continue as they are I can see a scenario where a new coalition opposition - including the LD's - becomes an initially uneasy party of government. Frankly anything that gets rid of the selfish, heartless and compassionless politics espoused by the right of the Tory party, UKIP and Trump can only be an improvement.
Anyway...article 127...thoughts?

Nice considered reply, you should become Swale's life coach. I think you missed my point re the LD's and government, I think there's a slim chance that labour will implode so badly the LD's might be the second biggest party in 2020, but I also think the LD's might hold the balance of power a la 2010. I think earlier you agreed that was a possibility. Swale appears to just hate them based on a previous slight I can't remember.

The problem with the wish in your last sentence is that those politicians are a reflection of the way the populace is moving. I've been meaning to share some insights I have through my strange collection of facebook 'friends', which suggest the conservatories and UKIP might actually be BEHIND the feeling of a big wodge of the UKIP population, and it would be an observation not a stance, but given recent spats I'll hold off for a while.

As for article 127, resistence to it will just get voted down, limiting immigration is a ***** component of anything the govt are planning for Brexit and ultimately they will close ranks and all (but Ken Clarke) will vote as one. My own view on the whole thing is that if EU allowed a modification to 'the free movement of people' to be 'the free movement of people who have a job offer and free movement of dependants not guaranteed' (as proposed by the Welsh Assembly as it happens) then I reckon someone in power would be looking to strike a deal at that point. Just IMO.

[roger_ramjet]

I would entirely agree with that final point Andy, ans surprisingly find myselt supportive of something of Welsh origins.