OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[BaaLocks]

What EXACTLY does remaining in mean? You did not know in June either. You tell me with any certainty what the EU will be like in 10 years? What will be the situation with Turkey? Albania? Can you guarantee me that we will still have a veto? Will with have the euro as a currency? Will Forest have finished above us!
Change can be good.. Same old, same old and you miss opportunity.

No, Forest will not finish above us. Took us 83 pages to get there but we have a point of consensus.

Turkey will almost certainly not join the EU in the next 10 years. Not because they are 'orrible Muslims but because they simply cannot meet the entry criteria, border control being one well documented reason (same for Ukraine btw). Albania, maybe? Actually, it's quite a nice place now - all their cars are hand valeted I hear :-) - but stereotypical jibes aside it is much improved and I could see Albania being in the EU. However, the important point is that it isn't a case of 'will Country X join' but a case of 'this is the list of criteria, if you meet it you can apply'. Which I think is fair.

As for what EXACTLY remaining means, well I go back to my point to Gaspode, sadly both sides completely failed to answer the question. So remainers can't answer that in the same way exiters can't either. Which is kind of, actually it is exactly, my point.

I don't dispute your point that change can be a good thing but we shouldn't be imposing this level of change on any country without being clear exactly what we mean by it. BTW - I'm not saying we go back and review, I'm saying we clarify before we go beyond the point of no return.

As to whether we will thrive outside Europe, I sadly don't think we will ever know for certain whether it was a good decision or not. The politicians will twist the argument for decades to come (already are doing) to justify their rationale and come up with a list of 'Britain has enjoyed 64% increase in blah, blah, blah', 'Crime is down 48% since blah, blah, blah' etc. Look at the pathetic attempts to assign racially motivated attacks on Brexit. Hate crime surged by 57% in the days after the referendum. Horror! Till you realise that amounted to 95 incidents - hardly the next Rwanda is it?

[swaledale]

There you go you just killed Anag arguement..
Stability for the lesser nations who take from the net contributors. Who else is going to join that will bring anything to the party. Albania ffs.. Have you ever been there? Dark ages..
Turkey, looking less likely.. Maybe at the moment but they will open those doors at some point...
The German and French public, will soon be revolting.

Maybe all sorts will happen, IMO the Uk would be better off able to influence. Lesser nations? If you mean poorer ones then yes, but stability for all comes from helping out those who are less developed surely?

The only way the refugee crisis will be resolved will be by reducing the difference between rich and poor (and stopping the odd civil war) The UK walking away from the EU will not stop it being affected by whatever happens in the rest of europe.

Equally the EU could change as politicians change due to pressure from their own citizens, disintegration of the EU would not be necessarily be a good thing.

[AngryRam]

You are very conservative with you football posts... Like I said better the devil you know...
Like I said, I might have you wrong.. Perhaps you are a risk taker who enjoys skydiving and hard drugs.

So my response was flawed yet it was in response to you inferring that people who voted leave did not know what was going to happen. My response was neither did you. I would suggest that your response was flawed.

[Trickytreesreds]

'To follow your logic, we would need full details on exactly what exit means'...Glory, Hallelujah...at last one of our leading Brexiteers sees the light and recognises what some of us have been saying for the last two months or more.

That is the point, people didn't know what Brexit meant when they voted back in June and as for becoming a 'laughing stock globally'...our Olympic achievements aside isn't that what we're in danger of becoming anyway...that and an isolated irrelevance.

Someone, probably BaaLocks, earlier today described the Brexit process as like 'unscrambling eggs'. Brilliant analogy imo...a mission impossible perhaps, that Mrs. May has cleverly handed over to 'Leave' minded ministers. Let's see how they get on.

Tricky, htf can anyone be an 'ex-has been'? As for EU pensions and 'back seat jobs' I doubt that any of those I mentioned fit that criteria so, again, I don't really see your point.

Look deeper ramanag. These buggers do bugger all for whats best for us.
The Kinnocks, I;m the son of a coal miner and working class poor man. Anti EU to the core. Then 4 Million pounds later via the EU gravy train, it's " we must stay in" .
Camerons Father in law in law, (freedom of information act) received 2.7 million in EU pay outs.
Major sidles up to Tony Blair over it, that convinced me.
Clarke, the buffoon who falls asleep in parliament, yet supports mass immigration. Of course being the Rushcliffe MP, I can guarantee he's hardly seen one. Certainly not one of the 2.2 million working here( not including their families) over loading his constituency.

All of them, even Hesseltine( the back stabber) are has beens and under no pressure but to gain, for singing EU praises.
All I have heard with this debate, is how bad it is to leave. Has anyone actually considered, how bad it could be to remain?
Italy/Portugal/Greece/Spain continue to decline. The financial effects of them alone, could very implode it all soon.
Of course the old iron curtain countries are still going to want their pound of flesh.

I predict the opposite of whats going on in here. The EU will have too much to lose with out working with us.
No one wants to stop trading with them. This is about the empire being forged.
The line has been drawn and the people said enough!!
cAMERON OFFERED THEM A WAY OUT. THEY LAUGHED AT HIM AND SLAPPED HIS FACE.

Fair enough, we got the message.

Major, Mr Grey and man without a personality

[swaledale]

The evidence is there from their own mouths that many people who voted for Brexit did so for reasons which can be shown to be untrue or flawed. I don't doubt a number did so for reasons which can be supported.

The remain argument centres largely on the economic benefit that the UK derived from being in the EU which is most definately put at risk by leaving, the full effect will take a few years to be known but the impact on a section of the people who voted leave will be apparent quite soon. The importance to the Uk to be able to influence the future direction of the EU, given we had a unique VETO over big changes, the fact that most of the laws we will keep anyway, and in order to trade with the EU will have to observe many regulations as well. That immigration had a positive economic effect overall, and that we will still require immigrants to keep our economy working.

It was successive governments of either party who failed to manage and plan for the immigration, but were happy to use the increased tax revenues for their own political ends rather than provide the infrastructure and support that was required.

Add to that the ability of UK citizens to be able to work and live in the EU and travel freely, plus work with other countries on wide rpolitical issues which no one country can do on its own and there are many benefits from membership.

[ramAnag]

You are very conservative with you football posts... Like I said better the devil you know...
Like I said, I might have you wrong.. Perhaps you are a risk taker who enjoys skydiving and hard drugs.

So my response was flawed yet it was in response to you inferring that people who voted leave did not know what was going to happen. My response was neither did you. I would suggest that your response was flawed.

Just unfounded Angry. How are my football posts 'conservative'. As I recall it's you who are the FA Cup traditionalist, who reacts badly when we rest players and who got all uppity when we made a mid season change of management.

I've already said I'm not a risk taker so what that bit is about I'm not sure, but I'm not saying all the fault is with the people who voted 'leave'. I'm not even saying that those who voted 'leave' don't have a case. I'm simply saying that we, the British people, were not given enough honest information to be able to fulfil the task we were entrusted with on June 23rd and that to blindly follow an unwise decision is a great deal more foolish than contemplating some sort of rethink.

I can't put it better than BaaLocks when he says...'we shouldn't be imposing this level of change on any country without being clear exactly what we mean by it' or, to come full circle and in your own words, 'we need full details of exactly what exit means'.

[Andy_Faber]

I can't put it better than BaaLocks when he says...'we shouldn't be imposing this level of change on any country without being clear exactly what we mean by it'

the argument against that is that, at general elections, most of the electorate commit themselves to five years of whatever is dished up without either understanding, or even giving a ****, what it is, because they blindly vote along party lines.

[ramAnag]

Fair point AF, but equally it could be argued that no General Election has ever imposed a level of change comparable with or likely to be as lasting as this referendum.

[Ram59]

I wonder how many remainers were intimidated into voting remain by the lies of immediate tax rises, the threat too peace in Europe, back of the USA queue, crashing of the economy, etc.

I wonder, now that they realise they were conned, whether they're glad that we voted to leave.

[ramAnag]

I wonder if you realise that only one of those conditions you mention was preceded by the word 'immediate'. So, the chancellor changed...the other three, unfortunately, remain perfectly possible.

[swaledale]

I
The days when people voted at general elections on party lines have gone, sure there is the hard core on the left or right, but there is a reason why both parties have been centrist over the past few decades!

People tend to vote for what they perceive is in their own self interests, but as as has been pointed out many votes, unless your in a marginal constituency, dont count and never will.

The point being though is that we elect governments to make major decisions, we or at least a part of the UK people may have voted to leave the EU, but it will be the politicians, influenced by those with power who will determine the basis on which that exit is made. In the end then, it will not be the "will of the people" that will prevail, it will be what the establishment can secure without obviously going against that so called will.

That is very likely to look rather similar to being in the EU IMO, those who think that somehow the EU will suddenly bend over backwards to do a deal are very much mistaken, but no doubt we will see over the next few months.

[swaledale]

I wonder how many remainers were intimidated into voting remain by the lies of immediate tax rises, the threat too peace in Europe, back of the USA queue, crashing of the economy, etc.

I wonder, now that they realise they were conned, whether they're glad that we voted to leave.

Doubt it, from the evidence the majority of those who voted remain were not impressed by the remain camps arguments - as Anag says, 3 of those negative aspects are still possible and theres the autumn statement to come, plus whether its due to Brexit or not, the economy has slowed, companies are witholding investment and the outlook is certainly not rosy at the moment.

[Ram59]

Both the IMF and Moody's have backtracked on their original forcasts. A senior US government official has made the 'back of the queue' statement to be untrue. A senior German official had said that we're too big to be stuck with a Norway type eu lite agreement.

I ask, does any of you believe that because of the UK leaving the eu, there will be a war?

I've got to go now, Elvis has just entered the building! Cameron has asked him to call in.

[ramAnag]

No, I don't think there will be a war just because the UK may leave the EU, but I do think a unified Europe provides the right message to those who seek to destabilise us and serves to help maintain the lasting peace which our continent has largely enjoyed for the last seventy plus years.
Genuinely hope the rest of your observations are well founded...apart from the Elvis bit...never really liked him.

[AngryRam]

70 odd years!
Bosnia and the break up of the former Yugoslavia....
And they are filling the club with similar.