OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

I think that's a very complacent viewpoint. Muslims' intolerance of the ways of other cultures, and the support of the well-meaning, means their impact on European society is way in excess of that.

Assuming you're talking about negative 'impact', where radicalised and extremist Muslims are concerned I'm sure that's true Andy. Beyond that I honestly don't know how you'd substantiate that suggestion.

[Trickytreesreds]

'That's if Merkel hasn't turned Europe into the new Caliphate in the meantime.'

Oh dear! You do realise that Muslims, despite the 'concentration' based in southern Eastern Europe, only make up about 6% of the European population don't you? That means that 94% aren't Muslim...some Caliphate.

Its actually 7.6% and growing!! 2 MILLION A YEAR FLOODING INTO THE EU.

considering Muslim families are out breeding Europeans by at least 3:1 , then you do the maths.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/5994047/Muslim-Europe-the-demographic-time-bomb-transforming-our-continent.html

None so blind, as those that won't see.

[AngryRam]

Hate to make you (and me) feel even older Angry but, the seventies to 2016 is more like forty plus years than thirty plus. Your 'what will it be like before we get an opportunity to say that again' was one of my original arguments in allowing younger people to vote. After all it is their future more than ours and I'm sure many are better equipped to vote than some of the eighty somethings. As things stand any seventeen year olds who just missed out on voting in June will be on their way to 60 by your earlier reckoning. Can that be right?

Was there not another referendum after the original in vote? Not sure how many years ago that was..
I'm in my 50s and still have a future I like to think... Pros and cons with letting even younger people vote... Be careful what you wish for on that one.

[Trickytreesreds]

Tell you what, to satisfy the polls.
Just in here, who wants remain- who wants out?

I think everyone knows by now - out for me

[Trickytreesreds]

Be careful there Angry lad. The current younger people are at this time running around the streets, chasing imaginary Pokemon, whilst blaming our generation for ruining their future.


PS, I think I deserve the 1000th post for bringing such clarity to this debate, from the red camp

[Andy_Faber]

Assuming you're talking about negative 'impact', where radicalised and extremist Muslims are concerned I'm sure that's true Andy. Beyond that I honestly don't know how you'd substantiate that suggestion.

I am taking a trip abroad next week which involves five flights. The check-in process will take me two and a half hours longer than it did in 2000 (my observation) and the flights will cost me 4% more (fact, I'll find where I saw that and post it when I find it). And you can be sure that waste of time and money wasn't due to anything Seikhs or buddists did.

I have a musician friend who lived, and made a good living, playing psychobilly to manic audiences in Germany. He lived in a sleepy town called Neiderau. He, his wife and daughters recently moved back to Oxford because in the last year the streets of his part of town have become a virtual no-go zone for anyone wearing a skirt or a short-sleeved blouse, and damned dangerous after dark. This started when the town was allocated some immigrants - not radicals, just people who (my friend says) clearly have an ethos which is intolerant of the ways of others, and (an absolute no-no for me) consider females to be commodities

I do a lot of recruitment interviewing where I work, and I've been asked by my HR not to ask candidates (many of whom, in my profession, are of 'subcontinent' origin) about what their interests are out of work, because a Muslim candidate has complained that those of other faiths are mentioning 'going out for drinks with mates' to differentiate themselves from abstaining Muslims

These aren't substantiation, just anecdotes, and I'm no racist....

[AngryRam]

Tell you what, to satisfy the polls.
Just in here, who wants remain- who wants out?

I think everyone knows by now - out for me

Hmmmm .... OUT
Herr Tricky.

[AngryRam]

[QUOTE=Trickytreesreds;38242077]Be careful there Angry lad. The current younger people are at this time running around the streets, chasing imaginary Pokemon, whilst blaming our generation for ruining their future.

QUOTE]

Yeah I know.. I am out with them now.. Trick buggers those Pokemon thingys

[swaledale]

Yes a calculated risk worth taking when you believe that staying in has a greater risk.
You would be risking your children's future staying in my opinion.
We have continually said, although you and others seem incapable of understanding that there was risk on both choices. Some of us believe that leaving will give our children a better future. Strange as that seems to you, intelligent people have come to that decision.
This country has been built on bold decisions. Our decisions, our future, our choice..
Markets are on the up.. These will be cyclical, no change in or out.
In simple terms, some of us believe that the EU is a flawed concept and is at a very difficult stage.. It could go either way. The change from within that you keep banging on about.. Good luck, we have had a certain amount of success with that I suppose with not going into the euro etc but steadily these special circumstances will dissipate. As Tricky has said what we originally accepted back in the 70s bears no resemblance to what we have today. 30 plus years before we got to say enough is enough.. What will it be like before we get an opportunity to say that again. What pile of poo will I have left for my kids? Are you willing to take that risk?

Hold on Angry! You were the one labelling remain as the "safe" option, you can't argue it both ways! Well you can but its a contradiction and rather undermines the case your making.

I rather thought this country had been built on an empire and exploiting resources and people in other countries but maybe i misread history!

IMO theres a difference between a bold decision, that is one taken with a rational view of the facts and consequences and a risky one, where actually the consequences arent fully understood, even by the most intelligent of people, in fact where in the Brexit campaign were those positive effects set out beyond meaningless statements about "taking our country" back?

You also ignore the economic benefits we have had over the past 40 years whilst being in the EU, or did I miss the bit where membership brought us to economic ruin?

How are you so sure that our ability to VETO the bits of the Eu we didn't like is going to be diminished? Thats an assumption not a fact, it may happen, though it would be by the agreement of the democratically elected UK government not an edict of the EU.

[swaledale]

I think that's a very complacent viewpoint. Muslims' intolerance of the ways of other cultures, and the support of the well-meaning, means their impact on European society is way in excess of that.

I am sorry Andy but that is absolute *******s - Muslims intolerance of other cultures FFS! Do you even know any Muslims? The vast majority are completely tolerant of other cultures and the ones i know are more than happy to have a drink.

Of course the average white Uk person is completely tolerant of other cultures and makes every effort to adapt when abroad dont they?

[swaledale]

I am taking a trip abroad next week which involves five flights. The check-in process will take me two and a half hours longer than it did in 2000 (my observation) and the flights will cost me 4% more (fact, I'll find where I saw that and post it when I find it). And you can be sure that waste of time and money wasn't due to anything Seikhs or buddists did.

I have a musician friend who lived, and made a good living, playing psychobilly to manic audiences in Germany. He lived in a sleepy town called Neiderau. He, his wife and daughters recently moved back to Oxford because in the last year the streets of his part of town have become a virtual no-go zone for anyone wearing a skirt or a short-sleeved blouse, and damned dangerous after dark. This started when the town was allocated some immigrants - not radicals, just people who (my friend says) clearly have an ethos which is intolerant of the ways of others, and (an absolute no-no for me) consider females to be commodities

I do a lot of recruitment interviewing where I work, and I've been asked by my HR not to ask candidates (many of whom, in my profession, are of 'subcontinent' origin) about what their interests are out of work, because a Muslim candidate has complained that those of other faiths are mentioning 'going out for drinks with mates' to differentiate themselves from abstaining Muslims

These aren't substantiation, just anecdotes, and I'm no racist....

Funny I caught a flight two weeks ago through heathrow, got through check in and at the gate in under an hour, it rarely takes me more than 90 mins and thats usually because of security checks - getting back in is a different matter as even using fast track and EU citizens I'm often there for over 2 hours!

[Andy_Faber]

Funny I caught a flight two weeks ago through heathrow, got through check in and at the gate in under an hour, it rarely takes me more than 90 mins and thats usually because of security checks - getting back in is a different matter as even using fast track and EU citizens I'm often there for over 2 hours!

I wasn't clear, I meant two and a half hours total, all five flights. BUT its still an impact.

[Andy_Faber]

And don't be silly and pull the 'Do you even know any Muslims' trick. I know loads and am friends with a couple. I also know loads of football fans who aren't psychopaths but I know they're out there, and I know loads of blokes in their fifties who aren't *****philes, but again I know they're out there - and agreeing with your last point, I know of loads of UK tourists who respect the ways of where they are, but I know there are British arseholes abroad.

[Ram59]

The veto is all right in theory, but in practise, how often is it used? You have 28 countries and not everyone will agree all the time. So I imagine that on certain issues, pressure is brought to bear on dissenters to toe the line and on occasions where this doesn't work, part of the eu go in a different direction. For example, we didn't want the Euro but it went ahead anyway and we are outside that clique of 19 countries, likewise with the shenken scrapping of border controls.

The eu has become too big, to work efficiently. 8 or 9 countries could get round a table and quickly get a consensus of opinion. How long does it take for 28,and increasing, countries of massively different social and economic characteristics to do the same?

[Trickytreesreds]

The veto is all right in theory, but in practise, how often is it used? You have 28 countries and not everyone will agree all the time. So I imagine that on certain issues, pressure is brought to bear on dissenters to toe the line and on occasions where this doesn't work, part of the eu go in a different direction. For example, we didn't want the Euro but it went ahead anyway and we are outside that clique of 19 countries, likewise with the shenken scrapping of border controls.

The eu has become too big, to work efficiently. 8 or 9 countries could get round a table and quickly get a consensus of opinion. How long does it take for 28,and increasing, countries of massively different social and economic characteristics to do the same?

That Sir is a massive crux of it.
The original 9 were of similar levels of economic parity and political understanding.
Since then, the EU has dragged the dregs of Europe in, which to be fair to them. Hasn't done them as big a favour as they thought.
Greece/Spain/Portugal thought they'd hit the jack pot. Look at them now.
Crippling debts, massive youth unemployment.
The old Bloc countries are currently going through the same pattern. It will all end in tears again. That's if they don't up sticks and head West/North anyway.