OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[swaledale]

I take your point Roger, but it has failed because its application was flawed, countries whose economies werent ready were allowed to join- Portugal, Spain italy and Greece must regret joining now. As for germany, yes they did very well, up to a point not sure long term thats going to be true. The Euro is up against the pound because of speculation, the markets aren't always right!

Tricky I have no more faith in politicians than you do, and I've never said they make the right or even sensible decisions, but you appear to be saying that democratically elected UK politicians misled the UK people? Of course they can always be voted out can't they? Poiticinas lied to us? Well I really would not have thought that! I mean the Tory's have only been blaming the economic melt down on labour when to the best of my knowledge Labour werent in charge in America or elsewhere in europe which suffered economic collapse! But people seem to buy the line as they trust the Tories with the economy!

Not all the politicians were in favour of The Plan as you call it and you quote from another source which has its own agenda, Some politicians resisted, others thought it was a good idea, why even Blair bargained away some of our vetos, but thats not the point really - whats the alternative plan? On balance membership of the EU brought more benefits than disadvantages.

Just a thought but when the negotiations are finished, would it not be a reasonable suggestion to put the outcome of those negotiations and the implications for the UK out to another referendum? After the easy part was the vote to leave, the hardest part is what happens next? (As the disappearance some leading Brexit politicians seems to confirm!).

After all we all seem so keen on the people having a voice and convinced that the vote to leave was made for sound reasons!

[macstheman]

Don't you think that effectively delaying the final decision until after terms are negotiated, possibly 2 years, will cause more economic chaos than either Brexit of Remain ever could??

[swaledale]

Don't you think that effectively delaying the final decision until after terms are negotiated, possibly 2 years, will cause more economic chaos than either Brexit of Remain ever could??

No until the deal is known then the markets will do whatever investors think they should do, we going to be effectively in limbo anyway seeing as no politician is anxious to pres the starting button!

[ramAnag]

In the continuing absence of anything football related, and because it's been a good debate, have to say I agree with the points you make Swale.
We all know politicians lie but surely the time has come for them to be held to account. Few people 'selling' anything else at all would be allowed to get away with some of the claims that have been made recently.
At the risk of stirring things up again look where the last batch of Johnson, Gove and Farage lies have got us. Not only are we now on course to leave the EU - and that one has probably been done to death on here now - but did those who voted 'Leave' really vote for, along with the possible break up of the U.K., the possible appointment of Cruella de Leadstrom as PM. Here is a woman who wants to bring back fox hunting, doesn't approve of gay marriage, has, allegedly, been involved in some pretty dodgy personal tax dealings, earned her living as a banker at precisely the time the banks, imo, caused the last recession and has recently brought her political 'electioneering' to gutter level.
I thought we'd touched rock bottom with the likes of Gove, Johnson, Farage and IDS in terms of nastiness, together with Corbyn in terms of ineffectiveness, but Leadsom, Aaron Banks and Suzanne Evans have managed to drill deeper still. Something has to change.

[AngryRam]

So in summary..

All politicians are low down slimey scumbags, who lie and cheat. Yet some wanted them to make the decision.
None that are left are any good and we are a rudderless ship. No Churchill in sight.
Europe is a failing entity and we got out.
Our political and financial leaders keep talking down our enconomy effectively creating a self fulfilling doom scenario and should be sacked.
A majority is only a majority sometimes.
Roger has a new name for Anag.
Swaledale has moved to Brussels and was always half German..
Tricky has spoken some sense for a dog.
Es*** has not.
If they ignore the referendum, I can effectively ask for Surrey to leave the UK and go it alone with Derbyshire..
Armageddon is a comin..
It's all Angry's fault.

[ramAnag]

So in summary..

All politicians are low down slimey scumbags, who lie and cheat. Yet some wanted them to make the decision.
None that are left are any good and we are a rudderless ship. No Churchill in sight.
Europe is a failing entity and we got out.
Our political and financial leaders keep talking down our enconomy effectively creating a self fulfilling doom scenario and should be sacked.
A majority is only a majority sometimes.
Roger has a new name for Anag.
Swaledale has moved to Brussels and was always half German..
Tricky has spoken some sense for a dog.
Es*** has not.
If they ignore the referendum, I can effectively ask for Surrey to leave the UK and go it alone with Derbyshire..
Armageddon is a comin..
It's all Angry's fault.

Except that Churchill was only a good war time leader and it hasn't come to that...yet! Not sure the people will fall for such rhetoric again anyway, and if Surrey wants to 'go it alone' that's fine by me but don't drag dear old Derbyshire into it.

Agree with the description of MOST politicians and in the interests of both aliteration and accuracy would have added 'self serving' to 'slimey scumbags' but...yes I would have preferred them to 'make the decision' because that's what they're paid for and, the last time I looked, that's the system of democracy we are meant to be governed by.
Anyway...having been to see the magnificent Paul Heaton and Jacqui Abbott on Cannock Chase last night - just brilliant - I'm hoping for the formation of the 'Caravan of Love' Party...got to be an improvement.

[macstheman]

I personally feel, Swale, that if a new referendum was held then the powers that be in Brussels, (whoever they are and to be honest I don't know if anyone really knows) they would deliberately 'toughen up' the exit terms to try to sway the vote in favour of staying. Now, the remainers may like that but what if the vote still goes for exit then we would have sunk our own boat! Now, whilst I can see where the remainers are coming from in respect of the dangers of Brexit, I reckon that to 'continue the fight' will actually inflict avoidable damage over and above any existing perceived damage. No, as you know I have been a bit of a wobbler on this issue, but I do believe that, rather like is happening in the Labour Party, for the infighting to continue will do more damage than is necessary. Rather like Corbyn is saying 'now is the time to move forward together'!

[mistaram]

ramAnag Have to agree about Leadsom talk about a career politician How can you campaign for remain then three years later when it suits your career campaign for Leave This is a woman who along with her husband put their company accounts through the tax haven of Jersey Theresa May is not much better she has managed to make immigration even worse for the last 6 years This is a woman who in 2012 ordered the Border Agency to wave passengers straight through Heathrow without checks to keep the queues down When the country was on red alert at the time She managed to blame it on BA chief the got £400,00 pay off and she kept herjob She's also the person who ordered the GO HOME lorry for London streets Got to agree with Angry 650. MPs and not a decent one among them certainly no leaders

[southernram22]

i think poloticians from all partys should take heed of what people have done.

[ramAnag]

i think poloticians from all partys should take heed of what people have done.

Seems to be happening southern...the people - well 37% of them - ****ed up (imo ) and so far the Brexiteers - Farage, Johnson, Gove and now Cruella Leadstrom - seem to be following suit.
Brightens my day every time another one is exposed as lacking anything at all in terms of integrity or any capacity for truthfulness. Just a pity the opposition is in even greater disarray.
We currently seem to be being governed by the bizarre 1922 Committee...democracy heh...don't you just live it?

[ramAnag]

May

Still laughing MoP?

[swaledale]

I am! At least I correctly predicted that Gove stood no chance of being elected Tory leader! I just need Ince to be moved on and my credibility as a pundit will be restored!!!

I weeped tonight watching the news as some people who voted for leave were interviewed over the fact that May had been elected leader, most were from deprived areas and clearly struggling economically and they all seemed to believe that the sooner Brexit happened the better of they would be, though it was clear they had no idea how Brexit would benefit them beyond very vague notions and the fact is it wont - sad that there are millions so misguided that they are happy about a decision which will hvae no positive impact on them....doomed we are doomed!

[ramAnag]

Me too Swale...though predicting that Gove stood no chance was about as difficult as predicting that it'll rain again tomorrow.
Seems like, now Cruella has given up, IDS is questioning his punditry skills too...only he's got a proper grump on and hasn't got as much 'credibility' as you to begin with. Hope you're back on form about Ince soon anyway.

Football and politics eh? You're right, those interviewed about Brexit were a sad bunch indeed, especially the one who said she'd 'wanted Mr. Farage', but there weren't many more inept sights than Angela Eagle and John Trickett today. Whole thing's a shambles, you just couldn't make it up, and since Theresa May's been appearing in a skirt...why does she suddenly look as if she's forgotten how to walk?

[Andy_Faber]

since Theresa May's been appearing in a skirt...why does she suddenly look as if she's forgotten how to walk?

I'm glad someone else noticed that, she looked worse in motion yesterday than Bradley Johnson did in the home leg against Hull

[swaledale]

Me too Swale...though predicting that Gove stood no chance was about as difficult as predicting that it'll rain again tomorrow.
Seems like, now Cruella has given up, IDS is questioning his punditry skills too...only he's got a proper grump on and hasn't got as much 'credibility' as you to begin with. Hope you're back on form about Ince soon anyway.

Football and politics eh? You're right, those interviewed about Brexit were a sad bunch indeed, especially the one who said she'd 'wanted Mr. Farage', but there weren't many more inept sights than Angela Eagle and John Trickett today. Whole thing's a shambles, you just couldn't make it up, and since Theresa May's been appearing in a skirt...why does she suddenly look as if she's forgotten how to walk?

Thats Rats speciality, only he just predicts it will rain one days?