OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[swaledale]

I do think you have said enough, you aint said much but you have said enough. Always look forward to your football related posts but my god what have you done here on this thread? Gobsmacked, really i am totally gobsmacked.
With that post alone you have taken us back to page 4.. I know you will say it has not been answered but really fella it has and in spades.

We ahve different views but I ahve answered or given my reasons for remain being abetter bet in two posts, yet you won't proivde a short list of the benefits that leave will bring?

[swaledale]

Im not a fan of centralised government spending preferring to leave the money in the hands of the wage earner to spend at his or her discretion. Im a "rugged individualist" I believe the technical term is.

As for your latter comments they do not prove a stronger economy or a cheaper cost of living. They are some random numbers associated with the use of a migrant work force which I guess came from EU but could have been independently sourced from anywhere. Its akin to arguing that the Job Centre has made our economy strong: it hasnt, it has supplied a resource, thats all.

As Angry said, stick to football xxx

Thats not even an argument, so your in favour of going back to medieval times and feudalism where the majority of the population relied upn the patronage of theose fotunate enough to be rich?

I take it you dont drive on roads, use airports use the NHS, schools, happy to let your home burn down, not bothered about public health etc. etc. Oh and no defence forces then? Rog you kill me with that last statement you cannot really believe that.

And no the figures are independently researched facts not from the EU, **** me you can't dismiss everything as pure propaganda, I rather think its you who need to stick to football as the real world seems to evade your consciousness!!

[ramAnag]

Now the dust has settled and everyone has now excepted Brexit, Who would you like to be our next Prime Minister, I know most folk would want Nigel Farage but at the moment that's not possible.

Flippin' 'eck...seems even seven weeks on the dust has hardly 'settled'.

Angry...you don't half get agitated and...well...angry when you're challenged and not getting your own way. Don't want to fall out with you at all but for someone who initially told me to 'keep my political ****e off a football forum' and that you found politics 'boring' you've had an awful lot to say.

Most of this debate has been reasonable, intelligent and relatively polite. Towards the end it's got a touch polarised with myself, Swale and BaaLocks tending towards the 'left' and Tricky, Ram59 and yourself further to the 'right' but you are inclined, imo, to make things personal when the going gets a bit tough. Your comment about me not liking change for instance and being conservative in my comments is just a totally unfounded assumption that you have plucked from nowhere and been completely unable to substantiate. Indeed if either of us appears as a 'traditionalist' - and I've no objection to that - it's you rather than me.

Some of your comments about Swale too are unfounded. He may be passionate but, imo, he has put forward logical and well reasoned arguments and if the debate has become rather repetitive it is only because, after so many posts, the argument has come full circle. Once you start repeatedly going down the 'I despair...I really do' line and questioning the intelligence of others simply because they disagree with you, I think it's often a sign that you yourself may have run out of things to say.

Roger...you may be quite right in your comment about Koreans and the Japanese making up much of the *** tourism industry...I wouldn't know. Neither country is famed for having a high Muslim population though is it? So my point stands.

[ramAnag]

That's a very rocky road to go down, even suggesting that we select who can vote and who can't. I don't disagree that some 17 year old are not capable of voting. Look hard enough and you might find a few 10 year olds. There has to be a start point somewhere, if they reduce that to 16, I won't have a massive issue.. Doubt many will use it but that goes throughout the age bands. As for a 70/80 year old, they have earns the right to have a say. I would have massive issues if the vote was taken away from senior citizens just because they might die soon. That really is dangerous ground.

There you go again, where have I said the vote should be 'taken away from senior citizens because they might die soon'? Don't even bother looking because I haven't. My point was that, when the last EU vote was 41 years ago it seems odd to me that we don't consider allowing 17 year olds to vote when they obviously have a bigger stake in the future than many of the eighty and ninety year olds who may well be suffering from age related 'incapacitation'.

To be more specific...there are plenty of seventeen year olds in full time employment, full time education/training or allowed to fight for their country who, on the evidence of past experience, may now not have a chance to vote on the subject of EU membership until they are 58. In comparison I know of elderly people in care, many of whom are suffering short term memory loss or even Alzheimer's, who were fully entitled to vote.

Without being remotely disrespectful to the elderly I'd love you to tell me how that makes sense.

[AdiSalisbury]

Sooooo..... bendy bananas, crashing economy, Bulgarian neighbours, little Englanders, impending doom, European superstate and more cash for the NHS. Time to take Swaley off the ignore list and get back to the football

[southernram22]

not being overruled by a bunch of bureaucrats everytime we make a decision in law. also being able to say enough and no. its personal choice swale everyone had had their say by now . its time to move forwards as you realise holding a grudge kills you in the end.

[roger_ramjet]

Thats not even an argument, so your in favour of going back to medieval times and feudalism where the majority of the population relied upn the patronage of theose fotunate enough to be rich?

I take it you dont drive on roads, use airports use the NHS, schools, happy to let your home burn down, not bothered about public health etc. etc. Oh and no defence forces then? Rog you kill me with that last statement you cannot really believe that.

And no the figures are independently researched facts not from the EU, **** me you can't dismiss everything as pure propaganda, I rather think its you who need to stick to football as the real world seems to evade your consciousness!!

Read what I said Swale, not what you would like to think I said - I did not dispute the facts, I merely observed that those facts neither support an argument for a stronger economy not a cheaper cost of living. They merely point to the value of migrant labour which I have never disputed. As noted later however, you dont have to be in the EU to recruit migrant labour, from EU countries or elsewhere

[roger_ramjet]

Roger...you may be quite right in your comment about Koreans and the Japanese making up much of the *** tourism industry...I wouldn't know. Neither country is famed for having a high Muslim population though is it? So my point stands.

May be right? I've seen them by the busload being ferried into clubs in Cambodia, Thailand, Philippines etc - but I just got on with my contribution to *** tourism and minded my own business!!! I didnt suggest there were loads of Muslims in either of those countries, just "defended" western europeans in general against the allegations (with tongue in cheek). I'm also not suggesting that western europeans or americans are blameless, but observe that its rather too far away to organise weekend away days for the lads / corporate hospitality and so on - but not too far for the aforementioned nationals.

[ramAnag]

Steady RR...I said, 'I wouldn't know'. The point was made in response to Andy talking about some Muslims in Germany treating women as 'commodities'. I'm just pointing out that such behaviour is not restricted to Muslims.
Don't know what's up with everyone today. Touch of pre match tension it would seem, but no one's talking about that.

[Ram59]

Pot and kettle, I'm afraid. You've labelled me as xenophobic, despite having no foundation and I find it deeply offensive. Many times I have said about the valuable contribution from immigrants, but because I said I would like to be able to stop the less desirable ones coming in, you called me xenophobic.

[ramAnag]

Pot and kettle, I'm afraid. You've labelled me as xenophobic, despite having no foundation and I find it deeply offensive. Many times I have said about the valuable contribution from immigrants, but because I said I would like to be able to stop the less desirable ones coming in, you called me xenophobic.

Not at all sure what your 'pot and kettle' comment refers to I'm afraid.

Neither have I 'labelled' you as xenophobic although...if the cap fits...as they say.

Let's consider the facts...I was actually talking about how 'freedom of movement extended peoples' horizons' to which you immediately retorted with (#464) 'Trouble is...this includes 'convicted rapists, *** offenders and other non-desirables'.

I queried why you had to instantly describe foreigners/immigrants as being synonymous with such 'lowest common denominators' and suggested such comments and attitude could be described as xenophobic.

You then went off on one and claimed I was accusing you of 'hating foreigners' when actually 'xenophobia' means 'displaying a mistrust or fear of foreigners'. The clue is in the 'phobia' bit.

Suspect we might have a case of 'methinks he doth protest too much' here. Either way, perhaps you need to understand what a word means before being so offended by it.

[Trickytreesreds]

Not at all sure what your 'pot and kettle' comment refers to I'm afraid.

Neither have I 'labelled' you as xenophobic although...if the cap fits...as they say.

Let's consider the facts...I was actually talking about how 'freedom of movement extended peoples' horizons' to which you immediately retorted with (#464) 'Trouble is...this includes 'convicted rapists, *** offenders and other non-desirables'.

I queried why you had to instantly describe foreigners/immigrants as being synonymous with such 'lowest common denominators' and suggested such comments and attitude could be described as xenophobic.

You then went off on one and claimed I was accusing you of 'hating foreigners' when actually 'xenophobia' means 'displaying a mistrust or fear of foreigners'. The clue is in the 'phobia' bit.

Suspect we might have a case of 'methinks he doth protest too much' here. Either way, perhaps you need to understand what a word means before being so offended by it.

Ramanag, i think what he's saying is, that free movement has tied our hands quite a bit in applying common sense and justice for the population.
Free movement, does allow undesirables in and also makes it hard to boot them out. That is the truth.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/06/eu-rules-stopped-britain-deporting-murders-rapists-and-violent-c/

I wonder how many Brits have dies at the hands of low lifes, who have simply walked into this country because they can?
So yes, in this case I am xenophobic, I have a fear of certain foreigners and quite rightly so.
I still fail to see, why folks cannot grasp the concept of a visa? You can go to Russia/China to visit or even work on a visa. All you have to be, is a decent human being with a check able record.
If you aren't able to prove that, why should you be allowed to just walk in?
It's time even ID cards were made compulsory as well now. Needs must.

Have to rush, I'm chairing the Ku klux Klan barbecue later. xx

[ramAnag]

You could well have a point somewhere amongst that Tricky but it doesn't alter the fact that to immediately identify the concept of foreigners or migrants with 'convicted rapists and *** offenders' does suggest an inclination towards xenophobia and that is what Ram59 is moaning about.

P.S. Having a 'fear of certain foreigners' - as you describe it - isn't what I said. I'm 'kin terrified of 'certain foreigners' from Trump to Putin and every single member of ISIS for starters. That's not being xenophobic, it's just common sense. Immediately making the leap from foreigner/immigrant to *** offender or rapist, which is exactly what Ram59 did, is very different.

[Trickytreesreds]

You could well have a point somewhere amongst that Tricky but it doesn't alter the fact that to immediately identify the concept of foreigners or migrants with 'convicted rapists and *** offenders' does suggest an inclination towards xenophobia and that is what Ram59 is moaning about.

P.S. Having a 'fear of certain foreigners' - as you describe it - isn't what I said. I'm 'kin terrified of 'certain foreigners' from Trump to Putin and every single member of ISIS for starters. That's not being xenophobic, it's just common sense. Immediately making the leap from foreigner/immigrant to *** offender or rapist, which is exactly what Ram59 did, is very different.

I see what you're saying ramanag and I get it.
In my world, just one life lost any of these low lifes, that was avoidable is a high price.
The EU won't do anything though, because it brings the whole issue of free movement into question.
Sometimes a price is too high. Gimme a visa system and lives/crime will be saved or avoided.
My opinion anyway.

[southernram22]

problem with this debate arguement viewpoint is just this the vote has happened. and swale only listens to what he wants to puts his spin on it and belittles anyone who dares disagree with his views theres democracy for you,