OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Andy_Faber]

...the rise of 'nationalism' around the World is my greatest concern at present but it cannot be disassociated from the Brexit vote as, imo, the Brexit reaction was very much a result of misplaced nationalism, xenophobia - oops Ram59 won't like that bit - and jingoism.

Cameron should have done MUCH more research into the likelihood of folk voting leave for the wrong reasons, either deliberately or through ignorance. But IMO you are wrong (for the most part) that it was/is 'nationalism' - there's a thin line between nationalism and not wanting to have a national identity eroded, and I think the sentiment (ignoring the rare true extremists) was/is towards the latter.

[Ram59]

1500 up, congratulations everyone.

[swaledale]

Cameron should have done MUCH more research into the likelihood of folk voting leave for the wrong reasons, either deliberately or through ignorance. But IMO you are wrong (for the most part) that it was/is 'nationalism' - there's a thin line between nationalism and not wanting to have a national identity eroded, and I think the sentiment (ignoring the rare true extremists) was/is towards the latter.

Ah and theres a debate which could go on even longer than this one has!

national identity, I had this debate with a couple of guys in the pub about English versus British, they staunchly claimed they were English through and through, I disputed that and in fact only had to go back to find one of their grandfathers was born in Wales from welsh parents, whilst the other had an Irish great grandmother!

The thing is national identity changes, it always has, its just that in recent times that process has got faster, but then life has got faster.

I love the fact that the Royal family are often held up as an example of national identity, yet their all foreign! And of course the favourite dish is supposedly chicken tikka masala (which by the way Rog you can order on line from a very good indian restuarant using JUST EAT!!!

I'd say then that nationalism is more about those folks who do not like change or who perceive that change has impacted upon them in a negative way, much as Brexit is said to be the "working class people" rising up in protest - though there are not many working class people in that part of the party that is eurosceptic! - I know equally as many 50 plus people who have not been economically disadvantaged who lament the way the world has changed and use nationalism as a hook to hang their hat on.

There is not one single issue at play here, globalisation has seen people who have not benefited from the economic wealth generated, but it has also changed the lives of those who have benefited but perceive their way of life is disappearing fast, thats two totally different views for a start.

Those who gleefully predict political chaos in europe or indeed the Uk should perhaps pause for a second, as bad as they think things are, political chaos is not likely to improve matters for the very people who seem pleased with it!

[ramAnag]

Cameron should have done MUCH more research into the likelihood of folk voting leave for the wrong reasons, either deliberately or through ignorance. But IMO you are wrong (for the most part) that it was/is 'nationalism' - there's a thin line between nationalism and not wanting to have a national identity eroded, and I think the sentiment (ignoring the rare true extremists) was/is towards the latter.

Take your point Andy, but in a situation where the vote was so close I think the reaction of some, admittedly a minority, in the immediate aftermath of the referendum, towards Eastern Europeans - particularly Poles - and also, bizarrely, Asians was very telling. I'm not for one moment accusing all Brexiteers of right wing extremism but there was, imo, certainly a significant element that were all too happy to identify themselves with misplaced nationalistic populism.
Personally I'd like to see the national identities of all countries retained but in a healthy 'vive la difference' kind of a way rather than through the 'tub thumping' jingoism which I believe to be advocated by the likes of Farage, Nutall and Trump.

[swaledale]

Take your point Andy, but in a situation where the vote was so close I think the reaction of some, admittedly a minority, in the immediate aftermath of the referendum, towards Eastern Europeans - particularly Poles - and also, bizarrely, Asians was very telling. I'm not for one moment accusing all Brexiteers of right wing extremism but there was, imo, certainly a significant element that were all too happy to identify themselves with misplaced nationalistic populism.
Personally I'd like to see the national identities of all countries retained but in a healthy 'vive la difference' kind of a way rather than through the 'tub thumping' jingoism which I believe to be advocated by the likes of Farage, Nutall and Trump.

Tub thumping jingoists tend to come to a sticky end, Farage will slide out of the limelight as he has nothing to offer beyond the single agenda, Nutall is irrelevant and Trump will soon find out that running a country is nothing like running a company you own where everyone does as you say, the complexities of diplomacy and politics will confuse and frustrate him, I'd be very surprised to see him last four years.

Meanwhile the "sensible" Tories know exactly what they need to do, but just have to find a way of doing it without the "Hard Brexit nutters in their party getting in the way".

[roger_ramjet]

Sorry Swale I hate Indian food, whether from Just Eat, Hungry House or direct from source. But I am 13th generation (minimum) English - unlike those incomer Windsors

[ramAnag]

Tub thumping jingoists tend to come to a sticky end, Farage will slide out of the limelight as he has nothing to offer beyond the single agenda, Nutall is irrelevant and Trump will soon find out that running a country is nothing like running a company you own where everyone does as you say, the complexities of diplomacy and politics will confuse and frustrate him, I'd be very surprised to see him last four years.

Meanwhile the "sensible" Tories know exactly what they need to do, but just have to find a way of doing it without the "Hard Brexit nutters in their party getting in the way".

'Nutall is irrelevant'...I'd love that to be as true as AF's 5-0 prediction Swale but I don't think it is. IMO the man is a fool...a halfwit...but with Labour in such a state of disarray and many of the poorer old working class/underclass feeling effectively disenfranchised I fear even Nutall and his band of reprobates continue to pose a threat.

P.S. Is it true that UKIP's environmental spokesman recently asked...'but what happens when renewable energy runs out'? I've heard it rumoured and wouldn't be entirely surprised.

[roger_ramjet]

'Nutall is irrelevant'...I'd love that to be as true as AF's 5-0 prediction Swale but I don't think it is. IMO the man is a fool...a halfwit...but with Labour in such a state of disarray and many of the poorer old working class/underclass feeling effectively disenfranchised I fear even Nutall and his band of reprobates continue to pose a threat.

P.S. Is it true that UKIP's environmental spokesman recently asked...'but what happens when renewable energy runs out'? I've heard it rumoured and wouldn't be entirely surprised.

I've never understood the concept of renewable energy myself. For example if one takes wind or tidal power, then this is "harvested" and converted into useable forms of energy eg electricity. Applying Newtonian physics (I think it is!) then you cannot create energy, merely transform it from one source to another - eg from potential to kinetic energy. So if we create electricity from wind or tide power, where does it "come from". Wind speeds must conversely fall or tides become lower or slower? I therefore conclude that if we keep draining off this energy from where it is stored (ie in the wind or the tide) to transform it into, for example, motive power for a car, surely it cannot be truly renewable?

I believe that the sun's activity effectively creates winds as the earth warms up and cools down as part of its daily cycle and the moon's gravitational fields create tides and so the energy we tap into may be replenished but surely that which we tap of and use is only obtainable at a cost.

I'm confuddled, never did understand physics me

[ramAnag]

I've never understood the concept of renewable energy myself. For example if one takes wind or tidal power, then this is "harvested" and converted into useable forms of energy eg electricity. Applying Newtonian physics (I think it is!) then you cannot create energy, merely transform it from one source to another - eg from potential to kinetic energy. So if we create electricity from wind or tide power, where does it "come from". Wind speeds must conversely fall or tides become lower or slower? I therefore conclude that if we keep draining off this energy from where it is stored (ie in the wind or the tide) to transform it into, for example, motive power for a car, surely it cannot be truly renewable?

I believe that the sun's activity effectively creates winds as the earth warms up and cools down as part of its daily cycle and the moon's gravitational fields create tides and so the energy we tap into may be replenished but surely that which we tap of and use is only obtainable at a cost.

I'm confuddled, never did understand physics me

I'm never sure if you think too much or not enough Rog. I hated Physics at school too, in fact I avoided the Science labs with the same grim determination as others avoided games lessons, but even I know that if the wind, sun and tides stop delivering we've got a whole lot more to worry about than Farage and Trump.

[southernram22]

i agree that everyone is entitled to his / hers own opinion has anyone gone down the road of what happens if the judges rule against govt and parliment then vetos brexit are we all clear where and what happens then the protests in london which i must say fizzled out would be a mere nothing compared to the oncoming protests many mps would be deselected . obviously the woman who brought the legal case would take over running the country . and the happy slappers yuppies etc would then lead us into a fully integrated europe or civil war ?

[ramAnag]

Not really sure why MPs would be deselected, why Gina Miller would be put in charge, what 'happy slappers' and yuppies (are there still any of them?) have got to do with it, or why just over one third of the country being a bit miffed would lead to 'civil war'. But apart from that...I agree...everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[Andy_Faber]

Personally I'd like to see the national identities of all countries retained but in a healthy 'vive la difference' kind of a way

I make this point as someone who has embraced all cultures I've come across since I was in a white minority in my school class at school, and who will be out in town feeding all homeless of any origin who need it on friday eve, but this link suggests you might be being a bit idealistic

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38200989

And it does make the brave step of being specific, another indication that the world is becoming a bit less PC and a bit more willing to tell it like it sees it

[ramAnag]

I make this point as someone who has embraced all cultures I've come across since I was in a white minority in my school class at school, and who will be out in town feeding all homeless of any origin who need it on friday eve, but this link suggests you might be being a bit idealistic

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38200989

And it does make the brave step of being specific, another indication that the world is becoming a bit less PC and a bit more willing to tell it like it sees it

Take your point Andy. I think you may have misinterpreted my position though. I'm not remotely PC and have ended up in 'trouble' on more than one occasion, professionally, for not 'towing the PC line'. I'm wholly opposed to racism but equally I find the more 'fundamental' aspects of all religions equally distasteful and I don't believe for a moment that criticism of certain aspects of the Islamic faith necessarily equates to racism. Suppose all I meant was that I'm opposed to the homogenisation of cultures and value the positive differences offered by other nationalities. Anyway, good luck on Friday evening - a job worth doing - and, of course, with your Sunday prediction.

[Andy_Faber]

Suppose all I meant was that I'm opposed to the homogenisation of cultures and value the positive differences offered by other nationalities.

I have to agree with that, I'm married to a Scot.

[roger_ramjet]

I have to agree with that, I'm married to a Scot.

Brave man Andy... would you have had to move there if they had voted for independence? As a long standing member of the Association for the Rebuilding of Hadrian's Wall I can only imagine the horror that such a demand would have caused. Colonel Walter Kurtz would have had it good in comparison