OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[swaledale]

Forgive me if I ignore the ramblings of someone who quotes the daily express as a source of verifiable facts!!

[mistaram]

Don't know why we need to employ another 3,000. Civil servants to help with Brexit Just employ Swales he is expert on all things Europe He even knows we will still be negotiating in 30 years

[AdiSalisbury]

we've been in a full blown globalisation since the 70s, .

Globalisation is one good reason why we don't need to rely so much on a Union with our neighbours. It only takes a couple of clicks to sell / buy from someone on the other side of the planet, why should we isolate ourselves as an EU governed member?

[Trickytreesreds]

Forgive me if I ignore the ramblings of someone who quotes the daily express as a source of verifiable facts!!

Listen Swale, wherever it comes from. Is it correct or not?

Was we as a nation, sold a puppy in the 70's around a deal that was all about free trade? No mention of an ever closer union leading to a USE? You can even argue that Ted Heath took us into the Europe charade illegally.

http://www.vernoncoleman.com/euillegally.html

My parents, (I wasn't old enough) voted for free trade and nothing more. That is what has riled them to vote out!!

You may be a europhile, but many of us are not.

Now we have a situation, where the "common market" has been tainted and used as a sledge hammer to knock countries into line.
Either get with the programme, or suffer.
They, " the un elected" have twisted democracy whatever way they want, to achieve the goal. Ireland/Denmark/Holland. We was supposed to buckle as well.

You believe and groan all you want. We are getting out and good riddance.
I give it 5 years and it will crumble. Trump, is a marvellous addition for us. To watch Obama having another snipe today, with bucket faced Merkel made it all the sweeter.
Germany, will have enough problems of its own, after Merkels reign. That's their tough luck.

[ramspride]

Listen Swale, wherever it comes from. Is it correct or not?

Was we as a nation, sold a puppy in the 70's around a deal that was all about free trade? No mention of an ever closer union leading to a USE? You can even argue that Ted Heath took us into the Europe charade illegally.

http://www.vernoncoleman.com/euillegally.html

My parents, (I wasn't old enough) voted for free trade and nothing more. That is what has riled them to vote out!!

You may be a europhile, but many of us are not.

Now we have a situation, where the "common market" has been tainted and used as a sledge hammer to knock countries into line.
Either get with the programme, or suffer.
They, " the un elected" have twisted democracy whatever way they want, to achieve the goal. Ireland/Denmark/Holland. We was supposed to buckle as well.

You believe and groan all you want. We are getting out and good riddance.
I give it 5 years and it will crumble. Trump, is a marvellous addition for us. To watch Obama having another snipe today, with bucket faced Merkel made it all the sweeter.
Germany, will have enough problems of its own, after Merkels reign. That's their tough luck.

Wish there was still a like button Trickytreesreds

[swaledale]

Listen Swale, wherever it comes from. Is it correct or not?

Was we as a nation, sold a puppy in the 70's around a deal that was all about free trade? No mention of an ever closer union leading to a USE? You can even argue that Ted Heath took us into the Europe charade illegally.

http://www.vernoncoleman.com/euillegally.html

My parents, (I wasn't old enough) voted for free trade and nothing more. That is what has riled them to vote out!!

You may be a europhile, but many of us are not.

Now we have a situation, where the "common market" has been tainted and used as a sledge hammer to knock countries into line.
Either get with the programme, or suffer.
They, " the un elected" have twisted democracy whatever way they want, to achieve the goal. Ireland/Denmark/Holland. We was supposed to buckle as well.

You believe and groan all you want. We are getting out and good riddance.
I give it 5 years and it will crumble. Trump, is a marvellous addition for us. To watch Obama having another snipe today, with bucket faced Merkel made it all the sweeter.
Germany, will have enough problems of its own, after Merkels reign. That's their tough luck.

So your in favour of autocratic leaders who use democracy and the desire for ordinary people for a better life to further their own aims which is to impose their own agenda, a right wing anti democracy nationalistic and isolationist as against a liberal open minded so called elite who have pursued an agenda of closer unity and removing barriers between nations?

And this will achieve for you and others precisely what? Certainly the agenda of Farage and Johnson has nothing to do with improving the lives of so called working people! Its as self serving as those whom you accuse and hers another fact - it was the proportion of over 50's wealthy people who have this pointless desire to go back in time which won the Brexit vote, and they don't give a stuff about those on the sharp end!

[swaledale]

Don't know why we need to employ another 3,000. Civil servants to help with Brexit Just employ Swales he is expert on all things Europe He even knows we will still be negotiating in 30 years

Its a fact, so much of our laws are european, mainly because we would ahve passed them anyway, but the EU did, that it will take that long to change! Sure we will replace EU wuth Uk in the name but the laws will be the same.

Plus to stay in the single market which economically we would be stupid to leave, then we will have to comply with EU regulations in any case, so yes it will take as long as 30 years to disentangle ourselves, negotiations on a deal won't take that long, but we will de facto be complying with Eu law and even contributing to the Eu for the next 30 years.

As for the government and civil service, i can tell you from experience that no one has a ****ing clue at the moment, its a shambles and when reality bites you will realise that Brexit does not quite mean what you thought it did!!

[swaledale]

Wish there was still a like button Trickytreesreds

What? Ypu like rambling incoherent *******s??? Thought you were smarter than that, people saying what you want here does not equal either the truth or reality as will become clearer over the next few months!

[Ram59]

You can like 1 post without liking a person's general views. Anag has agreed with me many times on other posts, but has labeled me xenophobic on this topic. I agree with Ramspride on the on this 1 post from tricky.

[Trickytreesreds]

So your in favour of autocratic leaders who use democracy and the desire for ordinary people for a better life to further their own aims which is to impose their own agenda, a right wing anti democracy nationalistic and isolationist as against a liberal open minded so called elite who have pursued an agenda of closer unity and removing barriers between nations?

And this will achieve for you and others precisely what? Certainly the agenda of Farage and Johnson has nothing to do with improving the lives of so called working people! Its as self serving as those whom you accuse and hers another fact - it was the proportion of over 50's wealthy people who have this pointless desire to go back in time which won the Brexit vote, and they don't give a stuff about those on the sharp end!

Read that again Swale- anti democratic etc. There is nothing more anti democratic than the EU. IT IS RUN BY UNELECTED BUREAUCRATS. Failed politicians from little countries who suddenly acquire seats of power.
We've been over this. The goal is one nation run by a politburo, along the same lines as the old communist Soviet Union. Even the Russians saw it for what it is.
I fail to see why you embrace this desire so much?
It is doomed to failure, purely by the amounts of little ****ty countries it keeps sucking in. Economically it is a lemming on a cliff scenario.
Now we learn that the Ukrainians can have visas. What do you think is going to happen now?
Mass movement/Putin land grab/more friction.
You think this is healthy?

The common market was a great idea. The minute it was used to set up an agenda to create a super state and mix cultures/ideals/laws/armies/jobs/currencies. Then it was flawed and will do more harm than good .

**** that, i'M OUT

[swaledale]

You can like 1 post without liking a person's general views. Anag has agreed with me many times on other posts, but has labeled me xenophobic on this topic. I agree with Ramspride on the on this 1 post from tricky.

This 1 post from Tricky is nothing but horse****! Its ironic, because he claims "the people" have been conned, yet their relative prosperity and indeed the social, employment and individual rights that protect people, e.g. the working time directive and numerous other laws came from the EU - those enhance ordinary peoples rights, something many hundreds of thousands of people have reason to be grateful for. Seeing as its such a big con, we seem to have done pretty well economically being in the EU, and whether people understand or not its that which has sustained public services like the NHS.

Neither Anag or I claimed the EU was perfect, but what system devised by humans is? But those preaching nationalistic separatism are utterly deluded, show me anywhere the big post Brexit plan that Farage has? We are indeed entering the era of post truth polictics, where as long as people like what they hear, it does not matter whether its true or even possible to achieve!!

Tricky is harking back to a different age, as most Leavers are, as for being able to sell anything on the Internet, jeez! What exactly do we make that people want to to buy??? Which countries do you think will be beating down our door and for what?

[ramAnag]

Not sure I 'labelled' you xenophobic Ram59. It obviously stung which may well mean that I was mistaken. As I recall I called you xenophobic because in one particular post you appeared to identify 'foreigners' with negative things. If I was wrong I apologise...the context was around the time of the Brexit vote and although I obviously don't know you personally at all, I have absolutely no doubt that a great many - not all - who voted for Brexit do indeed display a mistrust of 'foreigners' and were driven by xenophobia.

There is something deeply ironic about your concern for democracy Tricky. You recognise all that is supposedly undemocratic about the EU but you support everything to do with Farage and presumably his latest claim to be best placed to act as a conduit between the UK Government and Bernard Manning's - sorry Trump's - regime.
Let's be absolutely clear about this. Farage has stood for Parliament seven times and lost each time, what right has he got to claim to represent the UK? Trump got about 2,000,000 less votes than Clinton but, because of the bizarre electoral system, has somehow ended up as a very strong victor and Brexit is being driven by the will of just over one third of the British electorate.
How come you show so much concern for the 'undemocratic' aspects of the EU but appear totally comfortable with the other three examples of democracy being ignored/abused and where is there any evidence of either the much maligned Swale or I wanting to be ruled by bureaucrats from Brussels? Nothing could be further from the truth...there is a huge difference between recognising the benefits of a united Europe along with membership of the Single Market and believing that everything in the European garden is perfect.

Finally, given some of the attacks on Swale - and to a lesser extent myself - by some on here in the name of democracy, it may be worth remembering two names...Jo Cox and Gina Miller. The former was murdered (assasinated?) by some right wing knife wielding nutter shouting 'Britain First' and the latter is now afraid to leave her home. What price democracy and freedom of speech there Tricky?

[Trickytreesreds]

Not sure I 'labelled' you xenophobic Ram59. It obviously stung which may well mean that I was mistaken. As I recall I called you xenophobic because in one particular post you appeared to identify 'foreigners' with negative things. If I was wrong I apologise...the context was around the time of the Brexit vote and although I obviously don't know you personally at all, I have absolutely no doubt that a great many - not all - who voted for Brexit do indeed display a mistrust of 'foreigners' and were driven by xenophobia.

There is something deeply ironic about your concern for democracy Tricky. You recognise all that is supposedly undemocratic about the EU but you support everything to do with Farage and presumably his latest claim to be best placed to act as a conduit between the UK Government and Bernard Manning's - sorry Trump's - regime.
Let's be absolutely clear about this. Farage has stood for Parliament seven times and lost each time, what right has he got to claim to represent the UK? Trump got about 2,000,000 less votes than Clinton but, because of the bizarre electoral system, has somehow ended up as a very strong victor and Brexit is being driven by the will of just over one third of the British electorate.
How come you show so much concern for the 'undemocratic' aspects of the EU but appear totally comfortable with the other three examples of democracy being ignored/abused and where is there any evidence of either the much maligned Swale or I wanting to be ruled by bureaucrats from Brussels? Nothing could be further from the truth...there is a huge difference between recognising the benefits of a united Europe along with membership of the Single Market and believing that everything in the European garden is perfect.

Finally, given some of the attacks on Swale - and to a lesser extent myself - by some on here in the name of democracy, it may be worth remembering two names...Jo Cox and Gina Miller. The former was murdered (assasinated?) by some right wing knife wielding nutter shouting 'Britain First' and the latter is now afraid to leave her home. What price democracy and freedom of speech there Tricky?

Morning ramanag,

1. the Farage vote
Yes you're right. He has failed to get a seat. But is that because of where he fought it? We all know the UK election, first past the post system is flawed. Take Scotland, you can get 50% of the votes and 100% of the seats.
So in reality, has he failed? No he hasn't. He has pushed UKIP to the 3rd most popular party in the UK (inside 23 years), which outrageously, only has one seat in parliament. . They amassed half of Labours vote, which speaks volumes. So please stop undermining what Farage achieved.
British politics has been geared to protect the status quo for quite a while. It is changing, because folks want to clear out the rust.

2. I have nothing against the benefits of the single market. But why is the price for it so heavy?
It is a trade agreement, nothing more. You buy my goods, I'll buy yours and we won't use levies. Simples.
Where did all this bollox come from of European law, single currency, an army, flag, no borders, sucking in poor countries in expansion, un elected officials milking the honey pot for all it's worth.

3. I don't condone violence or threats.
Firstly, one psychopath who murdered an MP, isn't a yardstick. If I butchered an MP shouting allah akbar, would you associate all Muslims as anti EU?
Secondly, Gina Miller is only doing what she wants to protect the money making schemes her and hubby are on with. You may not know this, but she has deep links with BMW and launched their fleet in the UK. Close colleague of Spencer Churchill and the ETF funds. Yes, she wants the EU to keep her cash flowing. But she is another one who chooses to ignore democracy for self gain.
I don't agree with threats though, but the arrogance of the woman seems surreal.


ps, when it comes to threats and violence in the UK. Look no further than Corbyns army of thugs.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-corbyns-supporters-like-lenin-8434836

Yes the poor worker even has its nasty side

[swaledale]

And there in lies your lack of understanding Tricky - how is the price of being in the Eu so heavy? How have you personally paid a price or the Uk citizen for that matter, haven't you and other people actually benefited from economic prosperity, 50 years of peace within europe, ability to travel freely for leisure and work purposes, enjoyed the services provided by business and other services such as the NHS due to european immigrants? profited from investment buy countries in the aerospace, automotive, pharmacuetical and financial sectors?

Your vision of free trade is simplistic, a single market assumes we all play to the same rules, i.e. that one country does not gain advantage by employing workers on poorer terms, makes goods that are unsafe or does not obey laws on pollution etc. Jeez look at how countries like China pollute and dump goods on our markets!

I've asked you before what laws passed by the Eu do you object to? How have they impacted negatively on you? or are you beguiled by the idea that human beings act in a mutually beneficial way if they are allowed to do what they like?

Whats your objection to including other countries in the club? Countries that not so long ago were under the iron rule of the soviet union, oppressed and economically disadvantaged? Does it not occur to you that actually helping and including other nations and having an organisation where cooperation is to their mutual benefit is a good thing? That is means conflict takes place in debating chmabers and law courts, rather than on the battle field? or are you so self indulgent as to believe that being outward looking and inclusive is irrelevant to your life?

AS for the grander european plan, yes there are flaws, the single currency is a good idea, why have all this *******s about exchange rates etc. But it was poorly implemented, as for the idea of not having borders, whats the issue - don't say it allows criminals and terrorists to move freely, because they are able to do that whatever the border controls, thats just an illusion of security. For example there are thousands of illegal immigrants in this country, nothing to do with our membership of the EU, more to do with our own useless ****ing government who don't bother to track them.

I go back to Farage, what vision has he set out for a post Brexit UK? None he is too busy swanning around brown nosing Trump!

Whatever Ms Millers motives, and your the king of conspiracy theorists whilst overlooking the obvious autocratic anti democratic agenda of Farage, she has a point and one that is so ironic that the Brexits complain that the sovereign democratically elected parliament should have a say over Brexit, when that was a fundamental point they made about leaving the EU.

So hypocritical, we like democracy when it serves our ends but don't like it when it doesn't!

And of course the poor worker have their nasty sides, thats human beings for you and one reason why institutions like the EU help to moderate that dark side!

[Trickytreesreds]

And there in lies your lack of understanding Tricky - how is the price of being in the Eu so heavy? How have you personally paid a price or the Uk citizen for that matter, haven't you and other people actually benefited from economic prosperity, 50 years of peace within europe, ability to travel freely for leisure and work purposes, enjoyed the services provided by business and other services such as the NHS due to european immigrants? profited from investment buy countries in the aerospace, automotive, pharmacuetical and financial sectors?

Your vision of free trade is simplistic, a single market assumes we all play to the same rules, i.e. that one country does not gain advantage by employing workers on poorer terms, makes goods that are unsafe or does not obey laws on pollution etc. Jeez look at how countries like China pollute and dump goods on our markets!

I've asked you before what laws passed by the Eu do you object to? How have they impacted negatively on you? or are you beguiled by the idea that human beings act in a mutually beneficial way if they are allowed to do what they like?

Whats your objection to including other countries in the club? Countries that not so long ago were under the iron rule of the soviet union, oppressed and economically disadvantaged? Does it not occur to you that actually helping and including other nations and having an organisation where cooperation is to their mutual benefit is a good thing? That is means conflict takes place in debating chmabers and law courts, rather than on the battle field? or are you so self indulgent as to believe that being outward looking and inclusive is irrelevant to your life?

AS for the grander european plan, yes there are flaws, the single currency is a good idea, why have all this *******s about exchange rates etc. But it was poorly implemented, as for the idea of not having borders, whats the issue - don't say it allows criminals and terrorists to move freely, because they are able to do that whatever the border controls, thats just an illusion of security. For example there are thousands of illegal immigrants in this country, nothing to do with our membership of the EU, more to do with our own useless ****ing government who don't bother to track them.

I go back to Farage, what vision has he set out for a post Brexit UK? None he is too busy swanning around brown nosing Trump!

Whatever Ms Millers motives, and your the king of conspiracy theorists whilst overlooking the obvious autocratic anti democratic agenda of Farage, she has a point and one that is so ironic that the Brexits complain that the sovereign democratically elected parliament should have a say over Brexit, when that was a fundamental point they made about leaving the EU.

So hypocritical, we like democracy when it serves our ends but don't like it when it doesn't!

And of course the poor worker have their nasty sides, thats human beings for you and one reason why institutions like the EU help to moderate that dark side!

Just your own opinion.
It has been listed time and again the negatives in this thread. You just chose to ignore them.
That's your prerogative of course.
I concur about our useless governments, but it was at it's worst under Labour who opened the floodgates.
So you're still telling me, that the 3 million(under estimation)influx does nothing but good in relation to-
Housing/house prices/rents/NHS/Jobs at the low level/wage suppression/schools/congestion, in fact anything of service has been effected.
Don't give me all that bollox of it's a positive either. The common low end person is the one who has suffered.
I personally when interviewing, have had young lads with tears in their eyes chasing a minimum wage job. Where they normally see the post taken by a mid 20's Pole. we are destroying a generation and creating an under class.

Of course we need immigration, but why an open door and access to all the silly benefits we deal out?
Perhaps, you should also speak to the fishing fleet, which has been decimated in return, for the Spanish and French to rape our territorial waters.

As for the Iron curtain counties? How can you absorb countries not on the same economic ladder and not pay a price?
I suppose you're going to tell me next that the Euro, has been a wonderful friend to Portugal/Spain/Italy/Greece. 50% UNDER 25 unemplyment. You cannot suddenly change a countries financial level over night and not expect trouble.
Where do you think all these are going to go? That's right, across Europe. It suits the design as well, to bring about the merging of the continent plan.
Your statement about Europe peace is laughable as well.
I suppose NATO has done nothing to unify the way we see our enemies then? It's all down to the good old EU.
I'm beginning to think you write propaganda for Junker and Schultz.

It's time we did get a grip on the illegals in this country.
Shut the door with a visa system and sort out the free money trap. That'll do me.