OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Ram59]

Hurrah...normal service is resumed...not even contentious - though it probably is to some - and certainly rational. Like.

Nice to see swale being civilised again, I agree. But he's wrong on so many counts.

I don't any rational brexiteer blames all our ills on the eu, but there a few down to the eu and I, like many, feel we will do better without the eu.

The eu hasn't drained our finances, but it is a drain on them. We pay 350m a week but receive back about half in grants and subsidies. That costs money and is undisputed.

We are not hogtied by by eu rules and regulations, but we are certainly restricted by them. I have suffered then in business, my small farmer friend has to work with the same rules as a much larger French farmer, whereas the rules are fine for the large farm, they are stupid for the small farmer renting individual fields of other people. Then there's a local road development which had some eu finding, resulting in a bus lane on a busy dual carriageway, for 4 buses an hour at peak time, and over a half mile detour for cars!

What a ridiculous statement to say we are no less secure. We are now relying on EVERY eu country to have enough controls when granting asylum. 1 weak country can allow anyone to become an eu citizen and therefore free movement to the UK.

To say the eu compliments our objectives, is only true if we agree with the rest of the eu.

Military wise, I can't remember seeing many eu operations, but I do recall frequent NATO exercises.

The eu has many problems and I think they'll increase with further expansion. As I've said before, to stay in the eu is as big, probably bigger gamble than leaving, who knows where the eu will end up? Incidently, were you in favour of joining the Euro?

[Andy_Faber]

I think I preferred sweary cursing abusive Swale to this more rational and sensible one 😊

....to quote from the best Christmas movie ever, 'I must have missed 60 minutes'.

What's been going on?

[ramAnag]

....to quote from the best Christmas movie ever, 'I must have missed 60 minutes'.

What's been going on?

Much ado about nowt really...all Triz's fault.

[ramAnag]

More seriously...good to see things being conducted respectfully and meaningfully again. I see today though that the right wing U.S. website - Breitbart - has been reporting that a mob chanting 'Allahu Akbar' had set alight a church in Dortmund on New Year's Eve. All completely fake according to Dortmund police. Nothing untoward happened at all but 'unfortunately' the rumour was already out that '1000 militant Muslim's had attacked Germany's oldest church'.
This is something we have to be very careful of...it was typified by the lies surrounding both our own Referendum and the Trump campaign. Apparently we're entering the 'post truth' era...well that's just bollux imo...if it ain't true it's untrue/lies and we need to take great care where innuendo and anecdote are concerned these days.

[Andy_Faber]

More seriously...good to see things being conducted respectfully and meaningfully again. I see today though that the right wing U.S. website - Breitbart - has been reporting that a mob chanting 'Allahu Akbar' had set alight a church in Dortmund on New Year's Eve. All completely fake according to Dortmund police. Nothing untoward happened at all but 'unfortunately' the rumour was already out that '1000 militant Muslim's had attacked Germany's oldest church'.
This is something we have to be very careful of...it was typified by the lies surrounding both our own Referendum and the Trump campaign. Apparently we're entering the 'post truth' era...well that's just bollux imo...if it ain't true it's untrue/lies and we need to take great care where innuendo and anecdote are concerned these days.

Whats your opinion then on the current call for the likes of 9/11 and 7/7 to be included in school curricula, because without that formal reporting of events, todays kids are only enlightened by social media conspiracy theories and biased indoctrination?

[ramAnag]

Whats your opinion then on the current call for the likes of 9/11 and 7/7 to be included in school curricula, because without that formal reporting of events, todays kids are only enlightened by social media conspiracy theories and biased indoctrination?

Not entirely sure how the two are linked Andy and tbh the whole issue has passed me by. My initial reaction is that, unfortunately although it might seem like yesterday to us, these events are history and need to be taught about accordingly. Hopefully we learn from history and, speaking as one who had to deliver a whole school assembly the day after 9/11, I believe whether it be WW1, the Holocaust, 9/11 or 7/7, teachers have to deliver the facts as we know them and encourage informed debate of all such issues.

[Andy_Faber]

Not entirely sure how the two are linked Andy and tbh the whole issue has passed me by. My initial reaction is that, unfortunately although it might seem like yesterday to us, these events are history and need to be taught about accordingly. Hopefully we learn from history and, speaking as one who had to deliver a whole school assembly the day after 9/11, I believe whether it be WW1, the Holocaust, 9/11 or 7/7, teachers have to deliver the facts as we know them and encourage informed debate of all such issues.

I liken innuendo/anecdote with conspiracy theories

[swaledale]

Nice to see swale being civilised again, I agree. But he's wrong on so many counts.

I don't any rational brexiteer blames all our ills on the eu, but there a few down to the eu and I, like many, feel we will do better without the eu.

The eu hasn't drained our finances, but it is a drain on them. We pay 350m a week but receive back about half in grants and subsidies. That costs money and is undisputed.

We are not hogtied by by eu rules and regulations, but we are certainly restricted by them. I have suffered then in business, my small farmer friend has to work with the same rules as a much larger French farmer, whereas the rules are fine for the large farm, they are stupid for the small farmer renting individual fields of other people. Then there's a local road development which had some eu finding, resulting in a bus lane on a busy dual carriageway, for 4 buses an hour at peak time, and over a half mile detour for cars!

What a ridiculous statement to say we are no less secure. We are now relying on EVERY eu country to have enough controls when granting asylum. 1 weak country can allow anyone to become an eu citizen and therefore free movement to the UK.

To say the eu compliments our objectives, is only true if we agree with the rest of the eu.

Military wise, I can't remember seeing many eu operations, but I do recall frequent NATO exercises.

The eu has many problems and I think they'll increase with further expansion. As I've said before, to stay in the eu is as big, probably bigger gamble than leaving, who knows where the eu will end up? Incidently, were you in favour of joining the Euro?

£350 million is what we would pay to the EU budget, without the rebate.

But the UK actually pays just under £250 million a week so we dont send or pay £350 million per week.

Now, £88m a week is paid back to the UK in the form of payments to support things like agriculture and regional development, leaving a net contribution of £188m a week.

Out of that, £26m a week goes directly to private sector organisations in the UK such as universities to fund research, leaving £161m a week going to run EU institutions, pan-European projects and projects in other countries.

And of course being in the EU has economic benefits, though these are harder to put figures on, but given our economy is as I've said the 5th largest and we have an unemployment rate of less than 4.8% then we clearly haven't suffered economically from being in the EU.

That bus lane and road you mention, maybe part funded from EU development funds - used to promote growth but it wasn't built at the behest of the EU, there is a difference.

Yes farm payments are a major EU regulation, they are a mess (though thats why our food is relatively cheap) and favour big farms over small farms - France incidentally has more small inefficient farms than the UK whose big farmers do very well from EU subsidies - one may question why tax payers should fund a business that is not economic,.

Over 50% of regulations from the EU concern farming and climate issues, these are highly unlikely to be dumped by the UK government when we leave - other regulations will remain, the UK government is famous for gold plating regulations in a way other Eu countries dont.

As for remain being a bigger gamble than leave - all I can do is use an analogy - say your in the 4th storey of a house and there is something that is unpleasant or irritates you in the house, which would affect you if you left by the stairs - now if this something was fleas, rats, a flood even a nasty virus, you would still probabely use the stairs as being safer and more under your control, whereas if it was a fire or a deadly gas then the gamble of jumping from the 4th floor maybe a choice, but surely not one you would take unless there was no othe roption?

Remaining, we had a veto and influence, and despite all the issues benefitted from, leaving is a jump into the unknown, it might be an improvement, but the evidence suggests it wont be.

[Trickytreesreds]

This would be laughable bilge if you got your facts right, but seeing as you take those from the daily Express, don't even know what NATO is for and have no understanding of history, its a shame that others are taken in by your ignorance and bile, but fortunately the majority of people in this country are not, lucky for you as you would be the first to suffer if half of what you claim to want happen actually came to pass...but your too thick to understand that obviously.

"You're " oh wise one. xxx

[ramAnag]

"You're " oh wise one. xxx

Oh God, here we go again...have a look at how much better it was without your snide sniping. Notice you can only pick up on a grammatical error and not on any of the content...speaks volumes.

[Trickytreesreds]

Oh God, here we go again...have a look at how much better it was without your snide sniping. Notice you can only pick up on a grammatical error and not on any of the content...speaks volumes.

Not really ramanag, he was on his usual insulting mode, I just pointed out he isn't the genius he spouts
Pot and kettle come to mind.

Can I just comment on your post about the Breitbart report? I totally agree with you on facts being reported and not made up ****e. That site may want to whip up a frenzy, but why make the crap up?

So on that score, what's your opinion on the press suppressing genuine facts and not reporting them at all?
Take Sweden, now the rape capital of Europe, yet the press keep schtumn. The Cologne fiasco, where the German police tried to gag the reports and talk victims out of making statements? All are the results, of loony policy and Schengen.
Now I know my comments on this will start the howling, but they are facts and indirectly effect us. But why does the press play it down?

[ramAnag]

Not really ramanag, he was on his usual insulting mode, I just pointed out he isn't the genius he spouts
Pot and kettle come to mind.

Can I just comment on your post about the Breitbart report? I totally agree with you on facts being reported and not made up ****e. That site may want to whip up a frenzy, but why make the crap up?

So on that score, what's your opinion on the press suppressing genuine facts and not reporting them at all?
Take Sweden, now the rape capital of Europe, yet the press keep schtumn. The Cologne fiasco, where the German police tried to gag the reports and talk victims out of making statements? All are the results, of loony policy and Schengen.
Now I know my comments on this will start the howling, but they are facts and indirectly effect us. But why does the press play it down?

Clearly the press don't 'play it down' or you and I wouldn't know about it would we?

Why 'make the crap up'...because, as I said yesterday, empty vessels have to resort to anecdote, innuendo and hyperbole.

[Trickytreesreds]

Clearly the press don't 'play it down' or you and I wouldn't know about it would we?

Why 'make the crap up'...because, as I said yesterday, empty vessels have to resort to anecdote, innuendo and hyperbole.

Sorry, but they do play it down. http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/i...d-is-shameful/
You'd never catch the Guardian reporting on it or the BBC? Well, let's say no more.
The main stream press suppress most of this, but the internet is a game changer.
That is why you have a Brexit. Before it was what the tv wanted to tell you, or newspapers with their own agenda. No more.

[ramAnag]

Sorry, but they do play it down. http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/i...d-is-shameful/
You'd never catch the Guardian reporting on it or the BBC? Well, let's say no more.
The main stream press suppress most of this, but the internet is a game changer.
That is why you have a Brexit. Before it was what the tv wanted to tell you, or newspapers with their own agenda. No more.

So you use an article in 'the press' to argue that 'the press' cover stuff up...brilliant!

The other flaw in your argument is that there are only about four of the mainstream press, Mirror, Guardian, Observer and Independent that aren't overtly right of centre...the majority of the UK press supports either the Conservatives or UKIP and with Murdoch monopolising TV News I fail to see your point.

[triz]

Sorry, but they do play it down. http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/i...d-is-shameful/
You'd never catch the Guardian reporting on it or the BBC? Well, let's say no more.
The main stream press suppress most of this, but the internet is a game changer.
That is why you have a Brexit. Before it was what the tv wanted to tell you, or newspapers with their own agenda. No more.

Haha

Yeah the poor suppressed right wing press, if only they had a voice.

Have you heard yourself you numpty.