OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[roger_ramjet]

Ah, I see someone has discovered how to start altering 'quotes' (#1914/1915). A dangerous precedent and a last resort methinks.

Sense of humour failure day today?

You never used to be able to change quotes in the old system did you?

[Andy_Faber]

Why would anyone be 'in denial' about voting 'Remain'? More to the point, how does still making the case for 'Remain' and continuing to oppose Brexit, even after suffering the slenderest of 'defeats' in probably the most misunderstood vote of all time, constitute moaning?
As an apparently life long Tory - albeit of the more 'one nation' kind - can we assume that after Wilson/Callaghan/Blair's election victories you suddenly started supporting Labour? Surely those of us who still believe the Brexit vote to be a huge mistake and the idea of May and Trump getting into 'bed' together - pardon the imagery - an even bigger one are right to continue to resist.

Easy tiger! I didn't mean you at all! Happy to continue the joust....

[roger_ramjet]

Easy tiger! I didn't mean you at all! Happy to continue the joust....

Time of the month I think......

[ramAnag]

Time of the month I think......

'Easy Tiger'???? Not really relevant. Nothing angry about those questions...but they are fair imo.

'Sense of humour failure'? Not adopting the high moral ground...but you managed that all on your own earlier this morning RR.

[Andy_Faber]

Why would anyone be 'in denial' about voting 'Remain'? More to the point, how does still making the case for 'Remain' and continuing to oppose Brexit, even after suffering the slenderest of 'defeats' in probably the most misunderstood vote of all time, constitute moaning?
As an apparently life long Tory - albeit of the more 'one nation' kind - can we assume that after Wilson/Callaghan/Blair's election victories you suddenly started supporting Labour? Surely those of us who still believe the Brexit vote to be a huge mistake and the idea of May and Trump getting into 'bed' together - pardon the imagery - an even bigger one are right to continue to resist.

did I say I was a lifelong Tory?

My voting habits have been

Tory 92 (my dad voted by proxy for me as I was on honeymoon!)
Labour 97 (corrupt tories)
Labour 01 (Doing OK)
Labour 05 (Hmm, benefit of the doubt)
Tory 10 (Labour bankrupted us)
Lib Dem 15 (thought they'd done well controlling the conservatories)
At the mo I will vote Lib Dem 20 or whenever (see 15, IMO they will form the opposition in 20)

Work that out!

[Ram59]

[QUOTE=ramAnag;38411686]

Which absolutely no one is arguing with...but you then go on to justify allowing your 'natural leader' to entirely abuse his position which is exactly what is happening at present in our society.

I never said he could abuse his position, I said that he wouldn't seem to be physically working as hard add everyone else.

That's where a good leader has to strike a balance, but on many occasions a leader may not seem to be pulling his weight but may be planning, organising, worrying, taking risks without it being obvious. Union leaders don't spend all their times on a picket line, but I bet they spend plenty of time doing the above.

When you have run your own company, you can more appreciate the stress and other responsibilities that go with it, I gave it up because of this.

[triz]

[QUOTE=Ram59;38411680]

You're missing the point entirely. Take away wealth and social standing and everyone starts equal. A natural leader will come to the fore, it doesn't matter about his wealth or upbringing, a genuine benefit claimant will work as hard as anyone given an equal chance, but my point is that a scrounger, no matter what the circumstances, will expect everything for nothing.

Your missing the point, how many f the tax dodgers haven't worked to the top it's been handed to them. And now they refuse to contribute.

[Ram59]

[QUOTE=triz;38411799]

Your missing the point, how many f the tax dodgers haven't worked to the top it's been handed to them. And now they refuse to contribute.

You have a point there, I'd forgotten about those. They tend to be the ones that think they're above everybody else as well.

[roger_ramjet]

[QUOTE=Ram59;38411830]

You have a point there, I'd forgotten about those. They tend to be the ones that think they're above everybody else as well.

Well we have gained a little momentum in the drive towards 2000 today and with the tax/benefit cheats diversion despite it having gone off topic an already off topic subject.

[ramAnag]

did I say I was a lifelong Tory?

My voting habits have been

Tory 92 (my dad voted by proxy for me as I was on honeymoon!)
Labour 97 (corrupt tories)
Labour 01 (Doing OK)
Labour 05 (Hmm, benefit of the doubt)
Tory 10 (Labour bankrupted us)
Lib Dem 15 (thought they'd done well controlling the conservatories)
At the mo I will vote Lib Dem 20 or whenever (see 15, IMO they will form the opposition in 20)

Work that out!

Blimey...after all that, you and I must have been the only two people, possibly in Derbyshire and almost certainly on this forum, who voted Lib Dem at the last election.

No you didn't say you were a lifelong Tory, it was an assumption based on what you said sometime ago about what and who you would be supporting in the current circumstances for which I apologise, although tbf I did at least add, 'of the one nation' type.

Not entirely off topic Roger...one of the problems with Brexit, imo, is that everything has been horribly oversimplified so that our immediate and long term economic future now hangs on the vote of many who thought they were making a protest vote against immigration and fancied a bit of flag waving. Likewise the obsession some have with benefit claimants is another over simplification. It is 'Sun' reader speak, 'we can see these scruffy, lazy people who contribute little so let's blame it all on them. We know many of the bosses and the self employed are getting away with much more and damaging our society by far more but it's too hard to go after them and they did work hard once so let's go after the underclass scroungers.

Until that populist mentality changes and we look beyond the seemingly obvious things will never change.

[roger_ramjet]

Blimey...after all that, you and I must have been the only two people, possibly in Derbyshire and almost certainly on this forum, who voted Lib Dem at the last election.

No you didn't say you were a lifelong Tory, it was an assumption based on what you said sometime ago about what and who you would be supporting in the current circumstances for which I apologise, although tbf I did at least add, 'of the one nation' type.

Not entirely off topic Roger...one of the problems with Brexit, imo, is that everything has been horribly oversimplified so that our immediate and long term economic future now hangs on the vote of many who thought they were making a protest vote against immigration and fancied a bit of flag waving. Likewise the obsession some have with benefit claimants is another over simplification. It is 'Sun' reader speak, 'we can see these scruffy, lazy people who contribute little so let's blame it all on them. We know many of the bosses and the self employed are getting away with much more and damaging our society by far more but it's too hard to go after them and they did work hard once so let's go after the underclass scroungers.

Until that populist mentality changes and we look beyond the seemingly obvious things will never change.

I suspect we may never change then, either because people genuinely obsess about benefit cheats or because the media whip it up into a storm to (indirectly) sell advertising space.

[ramAnag]

I suspect we may never change then, either because people genuinely obsess about benefit cheats or because the media whip it up into a storm to (indirectly) sell advertising space.

Which kind of reinforces the point made originally by Triz...that many people are all too happy to be told what to think by the media even though they don't necessarily recognise it as happening. Never was this more true than on the twin subjects of immigration and benefit claimants...two pet subjects of the Brexiteers.

[Andy_Faber]

Blimey...after all that, you and I must have been the only two people, possibly in Derbyshire and almost certainly on this forum, who voted Lib Dem at the last election.

Almost the whole country to be fair....

Hope my disclosure shines a different light on some of my future rambles

[ramAnag]

Almost the whole country to be fair....

Hope my disclosure shines a different light on some of my future rambles

Slightly confusing that you're now looking for a 'right of centre' government...but I've usually seen you as a 'compassionate conservative' - if that's not too much of a paradox - albeit one wearing a cunning disguise at times.

[swaledale]

So in summary most of the pro Brexit camp are anti scrounger whereas Mangara from the pro EU camp is more tolerant of benefit scroungers preferring their small crimes to the bigger ones of the well healed. Tweedleswale is conspicuously silent on the scrounger debate.

Im thinking EU nationals scrounging off our State Benefits must therefore be a huge bete noir to many (except Mangara who will be there at the Eurotunnel welcoming them off the train 😊😊&#128522

I can't be arsed to join in, I've heard it all before and both those who think the majority of people on benefits (though 50% or more of the welfare state goes on supporting the elderly, together with a huge chunk of the NHS budget - so maybe compulsory euthanasia for the sick and those who pissed their wages away instead of saving for a pension?) are to quote "scroungers" are not IMO worth debating with - sure you can always find an example of someone conning the system - whether its benefits, tax dodgers, immigrants, assyslum seekers, labour, tory, lib dem or UKIP they are all humans and therefore a proportion of them are going to be engaged in crooked or fraudalent activity - labelling them all as such according to ones prejudices is simply lazy and frankly makes the person look stupid!