OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[roger_ramjet]

Of course he's an egoist Adi, he's a politician...it goes with the territory. Don't tell me you don't think the same about Gove, Johnson and Farage. Doesn't mean he's always wrong though. Paul Nuttall actually said something I agree with today...about VAT on fuel but I still think he's a totally dishonest and egotistical halfwit the vast majority of the time.

Roger...if we don't 'struggle' - or at least question, isn't there a danger that we just compound one error with another, all in the misplaced name of democracy?

Its very easy for someone in Nuttall's position to pledge to scrap this tax or the other just for publicity. Dont forget it wasnt long ago he was pledging to scrap VAT on fish and chips and now its the 5% add on on domestic gas n electric. He can pledge to scrap income tax if he wants - he is unlikely ever to get into a position to have the bluff called.

Problem is that what the Lord giveth, the Lord has to take away. Sure save people 50-100 quid VAT a year on their fuel bills but in order to fund it he will then add 200 onto petrol or beer or fags. Its all a game. All politicians play it, the "I will increase public spending, reduce taxes and keep the national debt level" b/s which is patently impractical - its just that non parties such as UKIP can play with impugnity

[ramAnag]

Its very easy for someone in Nuttall's position to pledge to scrap this tax or the other just for publicity. Dont forget it wasnt long ago he was pledging to scrap VAT on fish and chips and now its the 5% add on on domestic gas n electric. He can pledge to scrap income tax if he wants - he is unlikely ever to get into a position to have the bluff called.

Problem is that what the Lord giveth, the Lord has to take away. Sure save people 50-100 quid VAT a year on their fuel bills but in order to fund it he will then add 200 onto petrol or beer or fags. Its all a game. All politicians play it, the "I will increase public spending, reduce taxes and keep the national debt level" b/s which is patently impractical - its just that non parties such as UKIP can play with impugnity

Please don't think I would ever defend Nuttall. I think he's a nasty little man representing an equally nasty and opportunist little party. My point was that it's what people say that matters not necessarily who is saying it. Sincerely hope you're 100% right abut him never being in a position to offer meaningful political comment but bad things tend to come in threes...Brexit...Trump...Nuttall .

[roger_ramjet]

Please don't think I would ever defend Nuttall. I think he's a nasty little man representing an equally nasty and opportunist little party. My point was that it's what people say that matters not necessarily who is saying it. Sincerely hope you're 100% right abut him never being in a position to offer meaningful political comment but bad things tend to come in threes...Brexit...Trump...Nuttall .

He did however make exceedingly good Mintoes

[macstheman]

As a Remainer who has been willing to give full support to the outcome of the vote, now that Mr Gob****e has spoken I hereby join the ranks of a committed Brexiteer on the basis that anything he says is not to be trusted!! To think I voted for him!! Forever ashamed!!

[ramAnag]

As a Remainer who has been willing to give full support to the outcome of the vote, now that Mr Gob****e has spoken I hereby join the ranks of a committed Brexiteer on the basis that anything he says is not to be trusted!! To think I voted for him!! Forever ashamed!!

Harsh mac. I know he got it horribly wrong on Iraq but during his first few years he was, imo, the best PM in my lifetime. As a politician I've come to expect that 90% of the time, if their lips are moving they're lying, but on this occasion I think he made a huge amount of sense.

[Ram59]

All this talk of a second referendum is ridiculous. Just try and think about the practicalities of the result if it's not to accept the deal.

Are the eu going to be willing to renegotiate, will they accept being messed about by us? after possible renegotiation, will we have to have another referendum, and then another and so on until we're all happy?

After 2 years, unless both sides agree, we will be out, deal or no deal.

[ramAnag]

All this talk of a second referendum is ridiculous. Just try and think about the practicalities of the result if it's not to accept the deal.

Are the eu going to be willing to renegotiate, will they accept being messed about by us? after possible renegotiation, will we have to have another referendum, and then another and so on until we're all happy?

After 2 years, unless both sides agree, we will be out, deal or no deal.

I agree it's not ideal, but according to most Brexiteers they're so devastated that we're leaving that I can't see there being too much concern from the EU about being 'messed about'.
Is it really anymore 'ridiculous' than having our economic future governed by the outcome of a referendum that no one knew the conditions of and only slightly more than one third voted for?

[roger_ramjet]

Argh out comes that broken record again

[ramAnag]

Argh out comes that broken record again

Yeah, fair point...ultra repetitive I know...honestly though, what was the point of organising a vote that people still don't understand the implications of and why should 37% be considered to be the 'voice of the people'? Did all the Brexiteers really all recognise that they were voting for self imposed devaluation, leaving both the single market and the customs union? Of course they bloody didn't so until credible answers are provided a bit of repetitiveness doesn't seem so unreasonable.

[swaledale]

As a Remainer who has been willing to give full support to the outcome of the vote, now that Mr Gob****e has spoken I hereby join the ranks of a committed Brexiteer on the basis that anything he says is not to be trusted!! To think I voted for him!! Forever ashamed!!

Although on a point of fact, you could only vote for Blair if you were in his constituency! Voting Labour does not mean you vote for the leader, which is why even with Corbyn in charge (supposedly) I would normally vote for them, as of all the parties they do at least have some social conscience and are not wholly in thrall to the rich, although Blair was really just a tad to the left of Thatcher!

[swaledale]

Yeah, fair point...ultra repetitive I know...honestly though, what was the point of organising a vote that people still don't understand the implications of and why should 37% be considered to be the 'voice of the people'? Did all the Brexiteers really all recognise that they were voting for self imposed devaluation, leaving both the single market and the customs union? Of course they bloody didn't so until credible answers are provided a bit of repetitiveness doesn't seem so unreasonable.

Agree Anag, but I still think May is pandering to her won hard Brexit wing of the Tories, when it comes to the negotiations, it will be rather different - theres a long way to go and I do not believe even the Tories would be stupid enough to commit economic suicide, pus the leavers have a point, there is a quid pro quo for the EU countries, who will not be over keen to have their already struggling economies hit by increased costs of trade to the Uk- the next couple of years will be interesting and won't pan out entirely to the Brexit sides liking, by then however, the economic realities of a hard brexit plus the welfare cuts will be hitting those in the poorer areas of the country even harder and they will have forgotten what they voted for!

[swaledale]

This sums up the whole Bexit scenario

“Brexit tells us that there is a significant, small majority even, of people in this country who are prepared to sacrifice common sense, wisdom, sanity for a principle of self-determination,” “It doesn’t give me great confidence that the people of this country are going to be rational about decision making.”

This will be my final post on this thread, given the above, one cannot debate with people who believe "false truths" and have some magic faith that a direction which is clearly not beneficial will somehow turn out alright, indeed its pointless doing so.

[Ram59]

This sums up the whole Bexit scenario

“Brexit tells us that there is a significant, small majority even, of people in this country who are prepared to sacrifice common sense, wisdom, sanity for a principle of self-determination,” “It doesn’t give me great confidence that the people of this country are going to be rational about decision making.”

This will be my final post on this thread, given the above, one cannot debate with people who believe "false truths" and have some magic faith that a direction which is clearly not beneficial will somehow turn out alright, indeed its pointless doing so.

Do you want a wager on that?

[Andy_Faber]

Do you want a wager on that?

don't provoke him...

On a more serious note, did any of you watch 'After Brexit - The Battle For Europe'? Very thought-provoking stuff, albeit a bit to anti-EU in balance for my liking (although that in itself balances out the BBC's slightly pro-EU stance). Some of the EU bureaucrats interviewed are clearly living in a paralell universe, there was one guy who honestly reminded me of David Moyes in his last days at Man U

[roger_ramjet]

Didnt see that Andy but did see lots of evidence of a groundswell against Chairman Blair's intervention.

Best of this groundswell theorised that Blair wants to stay in the EU so he can have access to the EU Court of Human Rights when the full extant of his war crimes emerge! Also to keep his missus in a job!

Generally most people suggest he should butt out, apart of course from the Brexit Refusenik's such as Swale (tempt tempt.....)