OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

Hardly think it's only me Rog...I don't like the man and what he has become but I'm not part of the 'arrest him for war crimes brigade' and I find it disappointing that a politician who was originally, imo, like a breath of fresh air should have succumbed to greed and ego in the way he appears to have.

As regards the motives behind his anti Brexit speech, Ram...I appreciate where you're coming from but I still feel it was the best and most persuasive speech on the subject that I've heard. Whether he was the right person to make it is another matter.

[Trickytreesreds]

Fine lines and all that and I do not seek to make a party political point at all, but isn't it likely that Cameron (Syrian bombing), Thatcher (Falklands esp. General Belgrano) and even Bomber Harris (Dresden) were just as guilty of 'war crimes'?

disagree with two there Ramanag. We was at war and in fact the victim of aggression.
1. The Belgrano was part of a pincer movement, to trap the British carriers. She was tracked by a UK sub (Conqueror), who couldn't guarantee keeping her in observation. The admirals called, as the North had the aircraft carrier battle fleet baring down on them. What do you do? They was at sea, looking to spring a trap. So inside or out, it was smash it or suffer the consequences. Good call.
2. Harris was in charge of bomber command. His job was to shorten the war and save allied lives. Dresden was a sad target, but in war you have no chance of being sentimental. Dresden in the 20th century was a major communications hub and manufacturing centre with 127 factories and major workshops and was designated by the German Military as a defensive strong point, with which to hinder the Soviet advance. Official figures have the death toll at 25 000, despite the Nazi's screaming half a million died.
Funny how many civilians died under the jack boot, but lets blame bomber Harris.

[ramAnag]

disagree with two there Ramanag. We was at war and in fact the victim of aggression.
1. The Belgrano was part of a pincer movement, to trap the British carriers. She was tracked by a UK sub (Conqueror), who couldn't guarantee keeping her in observation. The admirals called, as the North had the aircraft carrier battle fleet baring down on them. What do you do? They was at sea, looking to spring a trap. So inside or out, it was smash it or suffer the consequences. Good call.
2. Harris was in charge of bomber command. His job was to shorten the war and save allied lives. Dresden was a sad target, but in war you have no chance of being sentimental. Dresden in the 20th century was a major communications hub and manufacturing centre with 127 factories and major workshops and was designated by the German Military as a defensive strong point, with which to hinder the Soviet advance. Official figures have the death toll at 25 000, despite the Nazi's screaming half a million died.
Funny how many civilians died under the jack boot, but lets blame bomber Harris.

I don't know all the facts Tricky. Many experts have suggested that the General Belgrano was outside the exclusion zone and moving further away at the time Thatcher authorised the attack. Likewise, other experts have suggested that up to 135,000 died in the fire bombing of Dresden which also seemed unnecessary because the Germans were on the verge of surrender. It has also been suggested that Dresden was a cultural city full of museums and, at the time, refugees fleeing from the Russians in the east...but maybe you know best.

[Ram59]

I wonder if Bliar would have been so eager to back Bush unconditionally and commit our forces, if he knew that his son would have been in the front line, as well as other people's sons and daughters.

[ramAnag]

I wonder if Bliar would have been so eager to back Bush unconditionally and commit our forces, if he knew that his son would have been in the front line, as well as other people's sons and daughters.

Very fair point...but then I don't suppose the lovely Mark Thatcher was likely to have been found in the vicinity of the Falklands...probably feathering his own nest doing an arms deal somewhere. Apart from the fact that his name lends itself to the tedious play on letters, why signal Blair out...he's a politician, he lies...don't the vast majority of them?

[Ram59]

Totally different circumstances, in the 80s another country attacked our Falkland Islands. Bliar after giving Bush unconditional support brexit getting any backing from government, then proceeded to lead us into attacking another sovereign country.

It always amazes me that we never got rid of Mugabe who was as bad or worse than Saddam. But then again there's no oil there and it isn't in the USA interests.

Bliar hijacked the labour party for his own gain and in the process has caused the debacle we have now. I wonder where we would be now, if John Smith had not passed away so early. I think we would have had a more traditional labour party without all the spin and showbiz and ultimately a better government.

[ramAnag]

Totally different circumstances, in the 80s another country attacked our Falkland Islands. Bliar after giving Bush unconditional support brexit getting any backing from government, then proceeded to lead us into attacking another sovereign country.

It always amazes me that we never got rid of Mugabe who was as bad or worse than Saddam. But then again there's no oil there and it isn't in the USA interests.

Bliar hijacked the labour party for his own gain and in the process has caused the debacle we have now. I wonder where we would be now, if John Smith had not passed away so early. I think we would have had a more traditional labour party without all the spin and showbiz and ultimately a better government.

They're not different circumstances at all as far as the PM's offspring are concerned which is the point you made and I was responding to.
The Falklands War was, imo, a 'populist' campaign designed to reinvigorate Thatcher's declining popularity.
Agree about Mugabe...horrible regime...but would 'getting rid' of him have been any more justifiable than Saddam Hussein according to your criteria?
Yes John Smith was that rare thing, a decent politician, but tbf...Tony Blair did do a lot of good and made the UK a better more caring place before he too appeared to go rotten.

[roger_ramjet]

I think your last observation is very apt, Mangara. Blair, when he first appeared, was something of a breath of fresh air - a voice of reason after the over indulgence of the Thatcher regime and one who did not fight her extremism (albeit softened a bit by some years of Major) with left wing extremism of his own. Sadly he as you say went rotten, or morally corrupt maybe. He was the first PM I think that fell for the cult of publicity and believed HE was bigger than the job. it became all about "me me me". A great opportunity lost to create a slightly left of centre government which could have lasted longer under a less self absorbed leadership. In the end he transformed from Blair into Bliar, not helped by his need to cosy up to Bush: his reign became unsustainable and I am sure that there is more to emerge as records become released into the public.

Smith was indeed the "great white hope" if I may be excused the expression, Had Kinnock resigned before being beaten by Major things would have been very different as I think Smith would have won that election on a "soft reform" basis. He had to do this in opposition and then unfortunately died before his time allowing more hard reformers like Blair and Brown in which simply created "Tory Light". But Smith laid the groundwork for all of the subsequent reforms and deserves much praise. But I will always wonder if, on the basis of all power corrupts, he would have maintained his sang froid or whether, like Bliar, he would have sold out. We will never know

[Ram59]

The way I see it is that Bliar didn't change, his lies and spin just got found out.

Yes, he did some good things but right from the beginning it's been Bliar first and labour or country second. He's brought a new (to us) type of politics based on hype and spin and the British public fell for it. Right from the beginning he has developed contacts and opportunities to serve him well after his premiership rather than putting the country first. If the country benefited from it, all the better, but his image was and still is everything.

Let's face it, if Bush hadn't promised revenge for 9/11, Iraq wouldn't have been invaded and hundreds of our forces would be still alive or not maimed for life.

[Andy_Faber]

My view on wars, and therefore the incidents mentioned, is not very nuanced: Re Belgrano and Dresden, the other side started it so cop for this pal. Re Iraq we ('the west') well and truly stuck our noses into the business of a culture we simply don't 'get' and maimed and slaughtered either directly or (ever since) indirectly countless thousands after ignoring independent expert advice, so there is a case to answer.

Which brings us back to Blair. He has two cases to answer IMO.

The first is as above

the second is that, under his watch, the erosion of our (my) national identity was accelerated at a pace that is still out of control. I actually blame him, the (New) Labour party and a cohort of 'defenders of the PC' for cultivating the feeling of dissatisfaction that led to the Brexit vote.

Which brings us (or me at least) back to Brexit

[ramAnag]

My view on wars, and therefore the incidents mentioned, is not very nuanced: Re Belgrano and Dresden, the other side started it so cop for this pal. Re Iraq we ('the west') well and truly stuck our noses into the business of a culture we simply don't 'get' and maimed and slaughtered either directly or (ever since) indirectly countless thousands after ignoring independent expert advice, so there is a case to answer.

Which brings us back to Blair. He has two cases to answer IMO.

The first is as above

the second is that, under his watch, the erosion of our (my) national identity was accelerated at a pace that is still out of control. I actually blame him, the (New) Labour party and a cohort of 'defenders of the PC' for cultivating the feeling of dissatisfaction that led to the Brexit vote.

Which brings us (or me at least) back to Brexit

But while I can accept that Labour/aspects of political correctness may have contributed to 'cultivating the feeling of dissatisfaction that led to the Brexit vote' you couldn't have been too concerned about the erosion of your national identity because you, if I remember rightly, voted 'Remain'.

As regards Dresden...I don't think ordinary Germans started WWII...it was surely Hitler and the Nazis but it was ordinary Germans, including many refugees who were killed by a bombardment of questionable necessity.

[roger_ramjet]

hair hair

[Ram59]

But while I can accept that Labour/aspects of political correctness may have contributed to 'cultivating the feeling of dissatisfaction that led to the Brexit vote' you couldn't have been too concerned about the erosion of your national identity because you, if I remember rightly, voted 'Remain'.

As regards Dresden...I don't think ordinary Germans started WWII...it was surely Hitler and the Nazis but it was ordinary Germans, including many refugees who were killed by a bombardment of questionable necessity.

It could be argued that those ordinary Germans chose to turn a blind eye to what went on for years leading to WWII.

[ramAnag]

It could be argued that those ordinary Germans chose to turn a blind eye to what went on for years leading to WWII.

Yes it could. It could also be argued that 'those ordinary Germans' were simply too scared to speak out against one of the most ruthless regimes in modern history. I've heard it rumoured that the SS and the Gestapo could be a more than a little tetchy at times.
I recommend 'The Book Thief' as an entertaining and accessible account of life in wartime Germany, the book is much better than the film, imo. Ben Elton's 'Two Brothers' is also worth a read.

[roger_ramjet]

As regards Iraq ...I don't think ordinary Iraqis started the Middle East conflict...it was surely Saddam Hussain and the Baathists but it was ordinary Iraqis, including many refugees who were killed by an invasion of very questionable necessity.