OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Ram59]

Yes but you have the argument the wrong way round. Its not a case that builders build and people magically appear (ie supply based), its a case that there is a demand from people and the builders meet that demand (ie demand-based). The pressure to build is immense for both free-market and social housing, to the extent that some developers are exploring the return of prefabs (there are some great designs coming out of China), and where do you think that pressure is coming from? Pretty obviously, from the population increase, more than half half of which is due to immigration (immigrants generally need their own housing of some sort from minute 1, the increase in birth/death rate does not, as children don't need the equivalent house freed up by a death until they reach adulthood).

So your argument for infrastructure to support the homes increase is valid, but that need wouldn't be there (or at least it would be 60% less) if it were not for immigration. In the interest of balance I will add in the mix there is 'social mobility/climbing' to add to the mix.

Once again I am making an economic argument, not a racially motivated one, I have to keep stressing that, as it always appears I argue at a macro level against what I believe at an individual level (ie love and protect your fellow human)

And what makes you think it isn't immigrants either buying up those houses, or more likely given other nations habits, renting them off landlords? You may genuinely know, it's your area not mine

Be careful what you say about immigrants Andy. People on here refuse to discuss any change to the EU's freedom of movement, a FEW of which, include criminals. On the other hand they want a grown up discussion on euthanasia on our older population, who have a poorer quality of life, even though SOME of them fought in WWII to give us our way of life we have today.

I've highlighted 2 words, because otherwise I'd be accused of claiming that all immigrants are criminals and the all old people are WWII heroes.

I just wonder what people's agenda is, when arguing for the rights of criminals.

[ramAnag]

Be careful what you say about immigrants Andy. People on here refuse to discuss any change to the EU's freedom of movement, a FEW of which, include criminals. On the other hand they want a grown up discussion on euthanasia on our older population, who have a poorer quality of life, even though SOME of them fought in WWII to give us our way of life we have today.

I've highlighted 2 words, because otherwise I'd be accused of claiming that all immigrants are criminals and the all old people are WWII heroes.

I just wonder what people's agenda is, when arguing for the rights of criminals.

A potential solution with an impressive looking product Andy...wonder about cost and soundproofing but might be a major breakthrough.

You're really getting paranoid Ram59.
No one has refused to discuss changes to freedom of movement and no one denies that a minority of migrants are criminals.
If you're talking about me you have, as ever, jumped to conclusions and deliberately tried to mislead. I am actually the person who wrote, a couple of weeks or so ago, that to raise the issue of immigration is not necessarily racist and I have never, at any time, introduced euthanasia into the debate.
What I have said, and you have accepted, is that immigration shares responsibility for the growth in population with other factors such as a temporary 'baby boom' and the increase in life expectancy.
What I have also said is that we, as a society, have to think very, very carefully about our/science's ability to prolong life with no attendant quality of life.
It is, imo, a reasonable question albeit a grown up one which you have, for the sake of your own agenda, translated into me wanting to 'bump off old people' and terminate the lives of 'handicapped children' neither of which I have at any time suggested.
It is unfortunately so typical of you to use such tactics. Bumping off old people some of whom might be war heroes, arguing for the rights of criminals, terminating the lives of handicapped children, all designed to tug on the emotional heartstrings but none of which I have even hinted at. Honestly, if this was a boxing match you'd have been disqualified for repeatedly hitting 'below the belt'.
So what have I actually said? Based on my professional experience I've queried the morality of people having more children than they can afford to keep without relying on the state/taxpayer. That's an argument about personal responsibility nothing more.
As for the elderly argument, let me give you a couple of sad and graphic examples.
My best friend's father died not so long ago. For the last five years or so of his life he didn't recognise anyone at all, he was bed ridden and totally incontinent. He was kept 'alive' by modern technology and I question the wisdom of that when he had absolutely no quality of life.
I'll also cite the example of my own mother who suffered a very severe stroke about ten years ago. She went from being a life embracing eighty three year old to a 'vegetable' and the prognosis was very depressing in terms of quality of life. Fortunately...yes fortunately...she died within a week and I'm 'glad' she did because she wouldn't have wanted the life that lay ahead and all the family wanted to remember her as she was, not as she had become.
No mention there whatsoever about euthenasia, simply an adult response to an issue which is being replicated all over the world where science is able to prolong life but not quality of life.
I am asking the question...is that really what we want and is that really something we (society) can afford? Please stop putting words into my mouth and if you can't address the issues I've actually raised then, putting it more politely than I honestly feel, maybe you should just shut up.

[Andy_Faber]

A potential solution with an impressive looking product Andy...wonder about cost and soundproofing but might be a major breakthrough.

You're really getting paranoid Ram59.
No one has refused to discuss changes to freedom of movement and no one denies that a minority of migrants are criminals.
If you're talking about me you have, as ever, jumped to conclusions and deliberately tried to mislead. I am actually the person who wrote, a couple of weeks or so ago, that to raise the issue of immigration is not necessarily racist and I have never, at any time, introduced euthanasia into the debate.
What I have said, and you have accepted, is that immigration shares responsibility for the growth in population with other factors such as a temporary 'baby boom' and the increase in life expectancy.
What I have also said is that we, as a society, have to think very, very carefully about our/science's ability to prolong life with no attendant quality of life.
It is, imo, a reasonable question albeit a grown up one which you have, for the sake of your own agenda, translated into me wanting to 'bump off old people' and terminate the lives of 'handicapped children' neither of which I have at any time suggested.
It is unfortunately so typical of you to use such tactics. Bumping off old people some of whom might be war heroes, arguing for the rights of criminals, terminating the lives of handicapped children, all designed to tug on the emotional heartstrings but none of which I have even hinted at. Honestly, if this was a boxing match you'd have been disqualified for repeatedly hitting 'below the belt'.
So what have I actually said? Based on my professional experience I've queried the morality of people having more children than they can afford to keep without relying on the state/taxpayer. That's an argument about personal responsibility nothing more.
As for the elderly argument, let me give you a couple of sad and graphic examples.
My best friend's father died not so long ago. For the last five years or so of his life he didn't recognise anyone at all, he was bed ridden and totally incontinent. He was kept 'alive' by modern technology and I question the wisdom of that when he had absolutely no quality of life.
I'll also cite the example of my own mother who suffered a very severe stroke about ten years ago. She went from being a life embracing eighty three year old to a 'vegetable' and the prognosis was very depressing in terms of quality of life. Fortunately...yes fortunately...she died within a week and I'm 'glad' she did because she wouldn't have wanted the life that lay ahead and all the family wanted to remember her as she was, not as she had become.
No mention there whatsoever about euthenasia, simply an adult response to an issue which is being replicated all over the world where science is able to prolong life but not quality of life.
I am asking the question...is that really what we want and is that really something we (society) can afford? Please stop putting words into my mouth and if you can't address the issues I've actually raised then, putting it more politely than I honestly feel, maybe you should just shut up.

Ramanag, I think the new student building on the old Kennings site opposite Queen street 'Baths' in Derby may have been built like that - the outer face of that huge building is certainly not bricks, as it appears, but lightweight tiles/cladding (oops). You can see where repairs have been done (mainly at the back of the building, such repairs have been done in clusters of bricks (8 I think) which represent a 'tile'

Back on the OT, yes I do recall you daring to pop your head above the left-leaning/socially responsible parapet and confirm that there was indeed an issue with immigration, which only served to announce the departure (temporary I hope) of comrade Swale, so the argument has got a bit one-sided in the past week, at least in volume.

[roger_ramjet]

Just back from the land of the Jock where I spent a surprisingly pleasant few (wet) days. It was nice to hear different accents in the retail, particularly coffee shop, sector. Not just eastern european accents but eustern europen accents hybridised with scotch overtones.

Even the staff in the tearoom on the Royal Yacht Britannia were speaking the same way. Is nothing sacred? Her Maj would be turning over in her grave if she was dead.

But as if it wasnt hard enough to converse with someone with a broad scotch accent, you have to try a Romanian Scotch one. Almost incomprehensible

[ramAnag]

Just back from the land of the Jock where I spent a surprisingly pleasant few (wet) days. It was nice to hear different accents in the retail, particularly coffee shop, sector. Not just eastern european accents but eustern europen accents hybridised with scotch overtones.

Even the staff in the tearoom on the Royal Yacht Britannia were speaking the same way. Is nothing sacred? Her Maj would be turning over in her grave if she was dead.

But as if it wasnt hard enough to converse with someone with a broad scotch accent, you have to try a Romanian Scotch one. Almost incomprehensible

Did you take Swale with you Rog?

No 'dare' involved Andy...I may be somewhat 'left leaning' but don't believe in 'towing the party line'. Like you, I call it as I see it and hope to make some sort of sense.

[Andy_Faber]

Did you take Swale with you Rog?

No 'dare' involved Andy...I may be somewhat 'left leaning' but don't believe in 'towing the party line'. Like you, I call it as I see it and hope to make some sort of sense.

Maybe not dare on this forum but the amount of trolling of those expressing a voice of reason on other forums is out of control. most of it just bigotted, some insulting and sometimes scarily so

[ramAnag]

Maybe not dare on this forum but the amount of trolling of those expressing a voice of reason on other forums is out of control. most of it just bigotted, some insulting and sometimes scarily so

Have to take your word for it AF. I don't go on any other forums...better things to do. 'Trolling' is just being repeatedly annoying or abusive via the internet isn't it? Can see how it's irritating, but scary? They're just keyboard wa****s aren't they?

[Andy_Faber]

Have to take your word for it AF. I don't go on any other forums...better things to do. 'Trolling' is just being repeatedly annoying or abusive via the internet isn't it? Can see how it's irritating, but scary? They're just keyboard wa****s aren't they?

I have a friend who makes his living in 'division 2' of the music biz (been on Jools, does a one hour Americana show on a national DAB radio station, been featured a lot in national magazines etc) who has been pushed towards bankruptcy, and briefly had to move his wife (and dogs) out of their house, after a facebook et al tirade against him reached 'the wrong people'. His crime? His wife made the mistake of suggesting that a black facebook friend of ours, who'd gone off on a pretty extreme anti-white, should 'tone it down a bit'. And I'm not making a black/white point, just a social media troll point

[ramAnag]

I have a friend who makes his living in 'division 2' of the music biz (been on Jools, does a one hour Americana show on a national DAB radio station, been featured a lot in national magazines etc) who has been pushed towards bankruptcy, and briefly had to move his wife (and dogs) out of their house, after a facebook et al tirade against him reached 'the wrong people'. His crime? His wife made the mistake of suggesting that a black facebook friend of ours, who'd gone off on a pretty extreme anti-white, should 'tone it down a bit'. And I'm not making a black/white point, just a social media troll point

Fair enough. Not a 'world' I inhabit at all, never been on Facebook in my life. Can't see that changing especially after your account above. Can appreciate the 'scarily so' point now...suppose there are extremists and those who take things too far in all walks of life.

[roger_ramjet]

Hurrah another "never been on Facebook" person. Ive never seen Star Wars either. I feel better for both.

[Andy_Faber]

Hurrah another "never been on Facebook" person. Ive never seen Star Wars either. I feel better for both.

Lucky buggers, its a necessary evil with me to support my musical hobby/semi-business interest

[ramAnag]

Hurrah another "never been on Facebook" person. Ive never seen Star Wars either. I feel better for both.

Ramjet and RamAnag...the two Facebook virgins. Mrs. NagaRam shows me FB things occasionally but it never encourages participation.
Wonder what else people have never done. I've never come away from Wembley happy!

[roger_ramjet]

I have never eaten cheese on toast in the foothills of Kanchenjunga in the company of three nubile paraguayan virgins whilst listening to gamelan music.

But I did go to the West Brom playoff game as well as the other 2 which are best not spoken of.

[Andy_Faber]

I have never eaten cheese on toast in the foothills of Kanchenjunga in the company of three nubile paraguayan virgins whilst listening to gamelan music.

But I did go to the West Brom playoff game as well as the other 2 which are best not spoken of.

I've never seen Derby lose to Leeds (when I've actually been there) - a 27 match run. I was covering for someone at a record shop in town when Frannie met Norman, I was ill when that South African who's name I can't recall (Harry Kuhl?) cheated his way to a last minute pen to beat us in the 90's, I'm sure there are others. Wish I could say the same about Forest but I've seen us lose one in 25 there, a 2-1 defeat away late 80's on that godawful open terracing at the City Hovel, got bloody soaked and took a Canadian workmate (who's only footy experience was watching in his homeland where his family would take a picnic to the game!) who was so scared by being in such a rowdy environment he left at half time...

[ramAnag]

I have never eaten cheese on toast in the foothills of Kanchenjunga in the company of three nubile paraguayan virgins whilst listening to gamelan music.

But I did go to the West Brom playoff game as well as the other 2 which are best not spoken of.

Cheese on toast! I'd have wanted a bacon sandwich for that scenario to work.
Was in Rome for the West Brom match...running up a big phone bill. My Wembley record is P3 W0 D0 L3.