OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

I've never seen Derby lose to Leeds (when I've actually been there) - a 27 match run. I was covering for someone at a record shop in town when Frannie met Norman, I was ill when that South African who's name I can't recall (Harry Kuhl?) cheated his way to a last minute pen to beat us in the 90's, I'm sure there are others. Wish I could say the same about Forest but I've seen us lose one in 25 there, a 2-1 defeat away late 80's on that godawful open terracing at the City Hovel, got bloody soaked and took a Canadian workmate (who's only footy experience was watching in his homeland where his family would take a picnic to the game!) who was so scared by being in such a rowdy environment he left at half time...

Think Harry Kewell was Australian, Andy. No relation to Martin Kuhl though.

[ramAnag]

So, a year and a day on from the 'birth' of this thread, Dominic Cummings, who directed the 'Vote Leave' campaign and dreamt up the infamous '£350m to the NHS' bus logo is now quoted - in today's Independent - as saying 'leaving the EU may be an error' and that the referendum was a 'dumb idea'.
Can we please come to our senses before it is too late?

[Andy_Faber]

So, a year and a day on from the 'birth' of this thread, Dominic Cummings, who directed the 'Vote Leave' campaign and dreamt up the infamous '£350m to the NHS' bus logo is now quoted - in today's Independent - as saying 'leaving the EU may be an error' and that the referendum was a 'dumb idea'.
Can we please come to our senses before it is too late?

On a barely related issue, did you see 'The Betrayed Girls' last night? I obviously took a keen interest in view of my one-man crusade against political correctness, but the shocking thing to me was that the BBC, through clenched teeth, called fire on their own position as over-protective of certain aspects of life, and admitted that 'The BNP were right'.

[ramAnag]

On a barely related issue, did you see 'The Betrayed Girls' last night? I obviously took a keen interest in view of my one-man crusade against political correctness, but the shocking thing to me was that the BBC, through clenched teeth, called fire on their own position as over-protective of certain aspects of life, and admitted that 'The BNP were right'.

Barely related Andy? Totally unrelated I'd say. I did see it, and the drama that preceded it a couple of months ago. Political correctness has a lot to answer for in that particular case. Not sure you're a 'one man crusade' though and don't agree the BNP were right either. They needed a stick to beat the Pakistani community with and the PC brigade gave them one by ignoring/concealing the allegations in the first place.

[Andy_Faber]

Barely related Andy? Totally unrelated I'd say. I did see it, and the drama that preceded it a couple of months ago. Political correctness has a lot to answer for in that particular case. Not sure you're a 'one man crusade' though and don't agree the BNP were right either. They needed a stick to beat the Pakistani community with and the PC brigade gave them one by ignoring/concealing the allegations in the first place.

Yes I agree with that assessment and for every Pakistani taxi driver there was a celebrity DJ or Catholic Priest and it is related because I think a silent minority voted Leave in the referendum as a 'free hit' against 'the establishment' who they saw as protecting those who least deserved it

[ramAnag]

Yes I agree with that assessment and for every Pakistani taxi driver there was a celebrity DJ or Catholic Priest and it is related because I think a silent minority voted Leave in the referendum as a 'free hit' against 'the establishment' who they saw as protecting those who least deserved it

Ah, yes...take your point. DJ's, pop stars, Catholic Priests, MP's, senior police officers, judges, cadet leaders etc. Actually the DJ's and pop stars seem to have been held more accountable than the rest.
Sadly white middle aged males are apparently the most likely perpetrators of child abuse but they are infinitely more solitary than the, predominantly, Pakistani grooming gangs.
Unfortunately that 'free hit' you speak of really is in danger of backfiring with dreadful economic consequences for us all.

[AdiSalisbury]

So, a year and a day on from the 'birth' of this thread, Dominic Cummings, who directed the 'Vote Leave' campaign and dreamt up the infamous '£350m to the NHS' bus logo is now quoted - in today's Independent - as saying 'leaving the EU may be an error' and that the referendum was a 'dumb idea'.
Can we please come to our senses before it is too late?

He was an idiot then, and he's an idiot now. The bus just fuelled the generic remainer patronising feeling of superiority (not by you, but in many many quarters) by being so stupid, and he's hardly helping his case again is he?

[Trickytreesreds]

Ah, yes...take your point. DJ's, pop stars, Catholic Priests, MP's, senior police officers, judges, cadet leaders etc. Actually the DJ's and pop stars seem to have been held more accountable than the rest.
Sadly white middle aged males are apparently the most likely perpetrators of child abuse but they are infinitely more solitary than the, predominantly, Pakistani grooming gangs.
Unfortunately that 'free hit' you speak of really is in danger of backfiring with dreadful economic consequences for us all.

Ramanag, whilst not having a go at you, can I just tell you "my" stance on this?

1. we joined a common market for free trade, to simplify everything
2. since then we have been sucked into a project, that has a goal- the United States of Europe
3. that has been hijacked into a common European law/free movement of members/ a new currency/ a new army/ a flood of migrants accepted so easily throughout the community(don't get me started on Merkel)/an ever closer devolution of sovereign powers
4. Until the project is complete and there is no turning back

All this new interfering protection has inflamed the general public in so many ways, until the tipping point was reached. "ENOUGH"

Now I accept, there will be economic consequences and it will rock the boat. But I'll be damned if I sit on my hands and allow it to smother even more of this countries rights and individuality to satisfy a "project" not born in this country.

We was "CONNED" in 1974 and we have been slowly manipulated ever since.

The fall of the EU for me, will come from the newest members. They like the sudden economic surges they have had, but fight back against the "projects" ideals. ie. immigration/laws and free movement/payments.

Just wait and see in my opinion.

[ramAnag]

Ramanag, whilst not having a go at you, can I just tell you "my" stance on this?

1. we joined a common market for free trade, to simplify everything
2. since then we have been sucked into a project, that has a goal- the United States of Europe
3. that has been hijacked into a common European law/free movement of members/ a new currency/ a new army/ a flood of migrants accepted so easily throughout the community(don't get me started on Merkel)/an ever closer devolution of sovereign powers
4. Until the project is complete and there is no turning back

All this new interfering protection has inflamed the general public in so many ways, until the tipping point was reached. "ENOUGH"

Now I accept, there will be economic consequences and it will rock the boat. But I'll be damned if I sit on my hands and allow it to smother even more of this countries rights and individuality to satisfy a "project" not born in this country.

We was "CONNED" in 1974 and we have been slowly manipulated ever since.

The fall of the EU for me, will come from the newest members. They like the sudden economic surges they have had, but fight back against the "projects" ideals. ie. immigration/laws and free movement/payments.

Just wait and see in my opinion.

Never thought you were 'having a go' Tricky. Doesn't really matter if you are but as far as I'm concerned we just disagree.

I'm not really one who believes in 'wait and see' especially when there seems to be an ever increasinging belief that we're making a dreadful mistake.
As I've said many times before, I'm not a fan of everything to do with the EU but I do believe we're better in than out. This seems to be a view shared by many business leaders who I'm sure know more than you and I.
I agree that the EU has changed out of all recognition from what was 'on offer' in 1974 but I honestly struggle to think of any of my 'rights' that have been overturned as a result of our membership.

[swaledale]

Did you take Swale with you Rog?

No 'dare' involved Andy...I may be somewhat 'left leaning' but don't believe in 'towing the party line'. Like you, I call it as I see it and hope to make some sort of sense.

Funnily enough i too have been visiting our northern friends or in my case family, though not with Rog!

Anyway Anag, I realised why I resolved to stop posting on this thread. What with peoples opinions based on the tripe shovelled out by rags such as the mail, Express and Sun, the inability to recognise and understand economics (despite some being right wing free marketeers! But then i guess a free market is fine until its effects seem to be negative! Plus being told that researched facts are my opinion and that my political allegiance (I don't actually have one other than to recognise that untramelled capitalism is fine if your rich, government both local and national provides services which we all require and that private business sups at the table of government largess more than it cares to admit! Oh and that immigration is not THE problem, but being used as a scapegoat.

Anyway I'm off back to the football threads as a discussion with people who don't bother to check facts does not interest me.

[Andy_Faber]

Never thought you were 'having a go' Tricky. Doesn't really matter if you are but as far as I'm concerned we just disagree.

I'm not really one who believes in 'wait and see' especially when there seems to be an ever increasinging belief that we're making a dreadful mistake.
As I've said many times before, I'm not a fan of everything to do with the EU but I do believe we're better in than out. This seems to be a view shared by many business leaders who I'm sure know more than you and I.
I agree that the EU has changed out of all recognition from what was 'on offer' in 1974 but I honestly struggle to think of any of my 'rights' that have been overturned as a result of our membership.

I think the mistake we are making at the moment is using politicians to do our negotiating for us. Regretably all the skilled commercial types, those same business leaders, pinned their colours to the remain mast, and therefore can't be seen to be offering their considerable skills to be getting a good deal for the UK (and maybe the politicians wouldn't want them on board anyway).

But I know that 'business' as individual entities won't just sit round and wait for the deal to be done. Many forward-thinking businesses had thoroughly thought through plans for leave and remain, and continue to 'work' them to their own ends (quite rightly)

[ramAnag]

Funnily enough i too have been visiting our northern friends or in my case family, though not with Rog!

Anyway Anag, I realised why I resolved to stop posting on this thread. What with peoples opinions based on the tripe shovelled out by rags such as the mail, Express and Sun, the inability to recognise and understand economics (despite some being right wing free marketeers! But then i guess a free market is fine until its effects seem to be negative! Plus being told that researched facts are my opinion and that my political allegiance (I don't actually have one other than to recognise that untramelled capitalism is fine if your rich, government both local and national provides services which we all require and that private business sups at the table of government largess more than it cares to admit! Oh and that immigration is not THE problem, but being used as a scapegoat.

Anyway I'm off back to the football threads as a discussion with people who don't bother to check facts does not interest me.

Welcome back anyway Swale. I think I might be the only person who has time for both the views of you and Andy...you aren't that far apart and do both speak more sense than many imo. I agree that immigration is not THE problem but it is part of the issue and that cannot be ignored. I also think that you have a better grasp of economics than many, including me, but unfortunately the referendum decision was made by people that read - and believe - the newspapers you rightly describe as 'rags' and that is very much THE problem.

Agree too with Andy that there is a problem with negotiations being conducted by politicians. The biggest problem, imo, is the original decision which we just seem to be compounding, but just as politicians are very rarely the most knowledgeable about such ***** areas as health, education, housing, transport, defence, industry so they are, compared with real business people, p**s poor negotiators too.

A bit like at the end of last season someone commented that there really wasn't a single member of the first team squad that we couldn't do without...can you name a single member of the current cabinet that you value as either a human being or a professional expert/negotiator? I can't.

[swaledale]

I think the mistake we are making at the moment is using politicians to do our negotiating for us. Regretably all the skilled commercial types, those same business leaders, pinned their colours to the remain mast, and therefore can't be seen to be offering their considerable skills to be getting a good deal for the UK (and maybe the politicians wouldn't want them on board anyway).

But I know that 'business' as individual entities won't just sit round and wait for the deal to be done. Many forward-thinking businesses had thoroughly thought through plans for leave and remain, and continue to 'work' them to their own ends (quite rightly)

Indeed and the up side of Brexit for me is that I have never been so busy,as companies plan their post Brexit strategy it will fund a more comfortable retirement than I anticipated, Trebles all round! Unfortunately it is unlikely to improve the lot of those folk in Clacton Boston, Middesboro etc who voted for it but thats life!

[Trickytreesreds]

Never thought you were 'having a go' Tricky. Doesn't really matter if you are but as far as I'm concerned we just disagree.

I'm not really one who believes in 'wait and see' especially when there seems to be an ever increasinging belief that we're making a dreadful mistake.
As I've said many times before, I'm not a fan of everything to do with the EU but I do believe we're better in than out. This seems to be a view shared by many business leaders who I'm sure know more than you and I.
I agree that the EU has changed out of all recognition from what was 'on offer' in 1974 but I honestly struggle to think of any of my 'rights' that have been overturned as a result of our membership.

Apologies Ramanag, I don't think I stated my true meaning very well.

What has trade got to do with a superstate?
Why do you have to belong to a club that wants to rule you, to escape trade tariffs?
The no borders/one currency/one law system/one army are tantamount to a revolution.
Do you want this, or are happy to get sucked into this?

I personally am not, in fact I think it is very scary.

[ramAnag]

Apologies Ramanag, I don't think I stated my true meaning very well.

What has trade got to do with a superstate?
Why do you have to belong to a club that wants to rule you, to escape trade tariffs?
The no borders/one currency/one law system/one army are tantamount to a revolution.
Do you want this, or are happy to get sucked into this?

I personally am not, in fact I think it is very scary.

That's the difference Tricky...I don't feel ruled by Europe, the last time I looked we still had the £, I'm quite happy with the borders, there is no such thing as a European army and we still make most of our own laws. I just don't see this pernicious threat that scares you. I'll admit the world...or the West...has fallen victim to globalisation more than I'd like but there is still a world of difference between the countries of Europe and long may that be.