OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

Well I think there was misleading propaganda put about by both factions, so that cannot really invalidate the decision one way or the other; also the "only 37%" argument can be ignored as still less voted pro remain, so that's 2 disputed.

Whether the referendum came about to unite Tories is sort of specious: it doesn't really matter why it was called - it was: and the view it came up with is to leave. I believe the advisory only status is legally correct but morally I cannot see how the government in power - whoever that may be - can ignore the decision. Certainly not if it wants to stay in power.

That just leaves the fact that it may be economically a poor decision. You are convinced, I tend to agree but dont see the end of the world quite as clearly as you. Others (perhaps deluded) think we will be OK. Point is that the great British public who made the decision probably did not make it on the basis of economics. Sovereignty, nationalism, immigration, stressed public services etc all were higher up their decision tree I imagine. If you think you don't understand economics, how do you think the long term unemployed pensioner or class DE type voter managed it? They didn't and indeed wouldn't understand it in any subsequent referendum.

There was ill informed decision making by the OUT group but who is to say the same was not true of the REMAIN group? Did those people who made a decision on economic grounds even consider the motivation and logic applied by those who made a more emotional decision?

It pains me to say it, but its not all about money - yes that really is me saying this. Those who voted OUT clearly did not consider those factors to be an important element in their decision making (or were too thick to understand it).

Don't dispute the bit about both sides, although the bus...and we all know what it said...was the most blatant example.
37% is still too small a proportion of supporters to justify a decision of this magnitude imo, particularly as those who will eventually be most affected weren't allowed to vote.
Being 'economically a poor decision' doesn't warrant a 'just'. It may not be 'all about money' now but ultimately I think it will. You have already spoken about losing the employment provided by the banking industry and the taxes that are paid as a result. You have said how important this revenue is to UK plc and such revenue is clearly ***** to pay for the public services we all depend on and much more besides. Where will that end?
I know I possibly understand more than some even though I am economically ignorant compared with others, but that was the point about the stupidity of having a referendum. People are simply not generally capable of weighing up a matter of such complexity, I agree.
Having gone down this ridiculous route though and listened to the interminable arguments ever since, I do believe the electorate is better prepared and equipped to reach a decision now than it was thirteen months ago.

[roger_ramjet]

Its certainly more likely to vote remain on another referendum if there was one. Mostly because temainers were too nonchalant by half and would get off their arses next time round.

Im not sure it would be better equipped though

[Trickytreesreds]

Don't dispute the bit about both sides, although the bus...and we all know what it said...was the most blatant example.
37% is still too small a proportion of supporters to justify a decision of this magnitude imo, particularly as those who will eventually be most affected weren't allowed to vote.
Being 'economically a poor decision' doesn't warrant a 'just'. It may not be 'all about money' now but ultimately I think it will. You have already spoken about losing the employment provided by the banking industry and the taxes that are paid as a result. You have said how important this revenue is to UK plc and such revenue is clearly ***** to pay for the public services we all depend on and much more besides. Where will that end?
I know I possibly understand more than some even though I am economically ignorant compared with others, but that was the point about the stupidity of having a referendum. People are simply not generally capable of weighing up a matter of such complexity, I agree.
Having gone down this ridiculous route though and listened to the interminable arguments ever since, I do believe the electorate is better prepared and equipped to reach a decision now than it was thirteen months ago.

Can I just ask one thing Ramanag?

We and in fact a few others have been rail roaded down an alley, because of a political aim.
Should we just throw in the towel, or fight back against the system to get things back on track?

Being British by birth, we normally fight against injustice, The EU has been born out of manipulation. I don't want it and neither does (though you scoff it 37% of the electorate) .
I have heard arguments of better to be in and campaign for reform. Yet Cameron tried that and got monkey spunk flung in his face. Why do folks cling to this corrupt institution?

[ramAnag]

Can I just ask one thing Ramanag?

We and in fact a few others have been rail roaded down an alley, because of a political aim.
Should we just throw in the towel, or fight back against the system to get things back on track?

Being British by birth, we normally fight against injustice, The EU has been born out of manipulation. I don't want it and neither does (though you scoff it 37% of the electorate) .
I have heard arguments of better to be in and campaign for reform. Yet Cameron tried that and got monkey spunk flung in his face. Why do folks cling to this corrupt institution?

Ask away Tricky...it's nothing personal...but I do feel exactly the same...should I just 'throw in the towel' because a minority of the electorate have voted to lead us down a road that many more knowledgeable than me have suggested will end in hardship?
You're arguing your case, I'm arguing mine...pity the UK didn't do the same thing...stay in and change things but don't expect to leave and keep the benefits...nothing (that I know of) works like that.

[swaledale]

Yes I'm probably a bit hard on Swale but hey ho, anyone who uses exclamation marks (especially doubles) as much as he does is fair game...and there's got to be a bit of fun poking and rise taking to lighten the bleak mood hasn't there? Now get back to that rear turret.

On the banking thing yes interesting anecdote but you didn't answer the more general question.

I wouldn't poke my head above the parapet if I couldn't take the flack and I have no issue with those who have different views and opinions, but Tricky's posts are so extreme and so full of utter hyperbole one sided and frankly offensive (to any civilised human) views that I have no problem calling him out for what he is.

As for the rest on here, I'd happily share a drink with mostand agree to disagree, and will give as good as i get in the debate.

[Trickytreesreds]

Ask away Tricky...it's nothing personal...but I do feel exactly the same...should I just 'throw in the towel' because a minority of the electorate have voted to lead us down a road that many more knowledgeable than me have suggested will end in hardship?
You're arguing your case, I'm arguing mine...pity the UK didn't do the same thing...stay in and change things but don't expect to leave and keep the benefits...nothing (that I know of) works like that.

hang on. minority of the electorate?
If the vote had been reversed, would you have the same stance?
The vote was a legitimate referendum. You may not like its outcome, but it what it is.
That s democracy

[Trickytreesreds]

I wouldn't poke my head above the parapet if I couldn't take the flack and I have no issue with those who have different views and opinions, but Tricky's posts are so extreme and so full of utter hyperbole one sided and frankly offensive (to any civilised human) views that I have no problem calling him out for what he is.

As for the rest on here, I'd happily share a drink with mostand agree to disagree, and will give as good as i get in the debate.

Oh shut up you tart. You really are the most yellow bellied bell end I have ever heard of.

If no one agrees with you, you go on the offensive,
You don't give and take, you provoke and label folks you don't even know. Quite frankly, you're a complete cock.

[Andy_Faber]

Okay...accept that...'We' was meant to mean 'the public/electorate' and I'm not speaking for Swale...but is there actually anything there that you'd dispute?

Who mentioned 'referendum after referendum'? We now generally accept the following...

I think 'we' is still less than 50% of those who'd vote

The Brexit referendum was brought about in an attempt to settle internal Tory party squabbles.

80% agree

It wasn't taken as seriously as it should have been

Totally disagree inasmuch as it was taken as seriously as previous national polls

and was hijacked by the right wing press.

Partly agree but I don't hear you moaning about left wing activists 'hijacking' social media at the last election. Efficient marketing is no crime, if it was Mrs Faber would be serving life

People were misled into voting a certain way.

See above

Only approximately 37% of the electorate voted in favour of 'Leave'.

Correct arithmetically but totally disagree with your logic that such numbers invalidates the outcome

The result was advisory and not binding

We'll see how 'advisory' it was when the final deal is announced, IMO the next election WILL be voted for on satisfaction with the Brexit deal

The consequences are likely to be financially damaging if not disastrous for the U.K.

No idea where you get that from unless it was the BBC's Kamal Ahmed, its waaaay too early to tell

[Andy_Faber]

I wouldn't poke my head above the parapet if I couldn't take the flack and I have no issue with those who have different views and opinions, but Tricky's posts are so extreme and so full of utter hyperbole one sided and frankly offensive (to any civilised human) views that I have no problem calling him out for what he is.

As for the rest on here, I'd happily share a drink with mostand agree to disagree, and will give as good as i get in the debate.

fair go, please proceed

[swaledale]

Oh shut up you tart. You really are the most yellow bellied bell end I have ever heard of.

If no one agrees with you, you go on the offensive,
You don't give and take, you provoke and label folks you don't even know. Quite frankly, you're a complete cock.

Oh er missus, I seem to have touched a nerve!

Your an ignorant xenophobic **** who posts false news whilst berating everyone who isn't white and born in England. Your exactly the type of **** that frankly we should urge the government to exile to some remote island that we own somewhere. No sane person would want to be associated with your twisted views.

I have proven you wrong so many times yet you still come back for more, either your a glutton for punishment or just thick!

You haven't a clue about history, your so called facts are gleaned from the gutter press or right wing sources with a clear agenda and frankly one does not have to know you to understand that the bile and exaggerated rubbish you spout is the sign of someone who clearly has a very low IQ and as you've just proved low self esteem!

Now piss off back to your own forum where it seems even your own kind think your a pathetic joke.

[swaledale]

Who mentioned 'referendum after referendum'? We now generally accept the following...

I think 'we' is still less than 50% of those who'd vote

The Brexit referendum was brought about in an attempt to settle internal Tory party squabbles.

80% agree

It wasn't taken as seriously as it should have been

Totally disagree inasmuch as it was taken as seriously as previous national polls

and was hijacked by the right wing press.

Partly agree but I don't hear you moaning about left wing activists 'hijacking' social media at the last election. Efficient marketing is no crime, if it was Mrs Faber would be serving life

People were misled into voting a certain way.

See above

Only approximately 37% of the electorate voted in favour of 'Leave'.

Correct arithmetically but totally disagree with your logic that such numbers invalidates the outcome

The result was advisory and not binding

We'll see how 'advisory' it was when the final deal is announced, IMO the next election WILL be voted for on satisfaction with the Brexit deal

The consequences are likely to be financially damaging if not disastrous for the U.K.

No idea where you get that from unless it was the BBC's Kamal Ahmed, its waaaay too early to tell

Agree with your summary except the question that "The consequences are LIKELY to be finacially damaging if not disastrous for the UK"

There are not many respected commentators or financial professionals who are not currently forecasting or assessing the likely outcome of brexit as being negative. So likely negative as things stand is a realistic viewpoint. Whilst much depends upon the type of Brexit we undertake, the reality is this.

The process will cost millions - revising laws, compiling bodies to take over tasks such as dug monitoring and approval, approval of chemicals, changing eu law into Uk law, creating border posts increasing customs staff etc. etc. All for no return.

The shift, which is already taking place of HQ's abroad, to Dublin , Paris Frankfurt etc. is seeing high paid skilled jobs leave the country. Inward investment and the creation of factories arising from that by companies who want easy access to the EU will reduce and is reducing further losing jobs and revenue.

Yet the leavers crow on about all those wonderful trade deals we will do, sometime somehow which will magically cover not only the costs but also the missing jobs and investment without actually saying where and how this will happen. Of course we may of course finish up outside the EU, but still in the customs union or even the EEA, but then what exactly will Brexit have achieved?

[ramAnag]

Who mentioned 'referendum after referendum'? We now generally accept the following...

I think 'we' is still less than 50% of those who'd vote

The Brexit referendum was brought about in an attempt to settle internal Tory party squabbles.

80% agree

It wasn't taken as seriously as it should have been

Totally disagree inasmuch as it was taken as seriously as previous national polls

and was hijacked by the right wing press.

Partly agree but I don't hear you moaning about left wing activists 'hijacking' social media at the last election. Efficient marketing is no crime, if it was Mrs Faber would be serving life

People were misled into voting a certain way.

See above

Only approximately 37% of the electorate voted in favour of 'Leave'.

Correct arithmetically but totally disagree with your logic that such numbers invalidates the outcome

The result was advisory and not binding

We'll see how 'advisory' it was when the final deal is announced, IMO the next election WILL be voted for on satisfaction with the Brexit deal

The consequences are likely to be financially damaging if not disastrous for the U.K.

No idea where you get that from unless it was the BBC's Kamal Ahmed, its waaaay too early to tell

1) Even if you're right, significantly more than voted 'Leave'.
2) We agree then.
3) Lots of complacency and the referendum took place at a particularly difficult time for students to register...changed by last month's GE.
4) We at least partly agree. I know nothing about social media. Nothing wrong with 'efficient marketing'...but the Brexit campaign would have breached trading standards.
5) You see above too.
6) 'Correct arithmetically'. That's a first at least, but seriously...how can a Yes/No vote be 'won' by just over a third of the electorate and still have credibility?
7) It's just advisory...legal fact. IMO the next election will be long before there is a Brexit deal.
8) You've said it yourself and added that it'll be the weakest/those most likely to have voted Brexit who are likely to suffer most. It's one thing that you, Rog, Swale and I actually seem to agree on. Look at the concern expressed by business leaders including the head of Rolls Royce.

[Andy_Faber]

Agree with your summary except the question that "The consequences are LIKELY to be finacially damaging if not disastrous for the UK"

There are not many respected commentators or financial professionals who are not currently forecasting or assessing the likely outcome of brexit as being negative. So likely negative as things stand is a realistic viewpoint. Whilst much depends upon the type of Brexit we undertake, the reality is this.

The process will cost millions - revising laws, compiling bodies to take over tasks such as dug monitoring and approval, approval of chemicals, changing eu law into Uk law, creating border posts increasing customs staff etc. etc. All for no return.

The shift, which is already taking place of HQ's abroad, to Dublin , Paris Frankfurt etc. is seeing high paid skilled jobs leave the country. Inward investment and the creation of factories arising from that by companies who want easy access to the EU will reduce and is reducing further losing jobs and revenue.

Yet the leavers crow on about all those wonderful trade deals we will do, sometime somehow which will magically cover not only the costs but also the missing jobs and investment without actually saying where and how this will happen. Of course we may of course finish up outside the EU, but still in the customs union or even the EEA, but then what exactly will Brexit have achieved?

I will agree that there's too much crowing about the Americans and Australians coming to our rescue.

The 'unseen' bits of UK/EU intertwining are going to be a BITCH to unravel if the EU play hard and dont let us become associate members of bodies etcc

IMO, the issue of movement of 'labour' is (at the mo) patchy and anecdotal. My 9-5 company is shovelling skilled folk in as quick as we can buy the plane tickets, from all over the world, but I wouldn't extrapolate from that

[Andy_Faber]

1) 8) You've said it yourself and added that it'll be the weakest/those most likely to have voted Brexit who are likely to suffer most. It's one thing that you, Rog, Swale and I actually seem to agree on. Look at the concern expressed by business leaders including the head of Rolls Royce.

Economically, yes. But, and here's my Nick Clegg moment, TTR is right, its not why most leavers voted to leave. Maybe RR said it too. Ive mentioned before my facebook window on a world different to my own (I sound such a snob talking about class, but these are folk who think Ode To Joy is a perfume), and the anger was and still is about immigration, sovereignty and the size of the bill (yes £350m was a lie but there IS a bill), many of them have no concept of the kind of economics associated with Brexit, it fries my brain and I claim to be knowledgeable in that area.

[ramAnag]

[QUOTE=Andy_Faber;38585217]Economically, yes. But, and here's my Nick Clegg moment, TTR is right, its not why most leavers voted to leave. Maybe RR said it too. Ive mentioned before my facebook window on a world different to my own (I sound such a snob talking about class, but these are folk who think Ode To Joy is a perfume), and the anger was and still is about immigration, sovereignty and the size of the bill (yes £350m was a lie but there IS a bill), many of them have no concept of the kind of economics associated with Brexit, it fries my brain and I claim to be knowledgeable in that area.[/QUOTE

I'm aware we're in danger of just going round in circles, have been for a while actually, but this is so frustrating.
Swale is absolutely right to ask 'what exactly will Brexit have achieved'?
We may have been seen to 'stand up' to the bureaucracy and lack of democracy that I accept are too prevalent within the EU but their impact on our laws and legislation is tiny and in some instances actually clearly beneficial. Maybe we will move towards the free movement of 'labour' rather than 'people' and I can see the arguments in favour of that...but at what cost?
You, along with the mischievous Ramjet, accept that 'economically...yes' - times are going to get harder. Again to quote Swale, there are so many 'respected commentators' offering the same prognosis and yet for some bizarre reason we continue down this route of throwing the baby out with the bath water.

We just can't afford the cost of Brexit. Yes of course there is a bill for membership of the EU, just as there is for any 'club' but there are also numerous benefits. Don't be afraid of being labelled a 'snob'. It's not snobbery to wish to avoid being led by a bizarre alliance of social (though not intellectual) elitists such as Gove, Johnson and Rees Mogg and the half wits you describe on Facebook who think that any one who is 'pro-European' is a cowardly collaborator...it's common sense.