OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[swaledale]

Hmmm...'tell it like it is'? You tell it like it is...to you. There's a not too subtle difference.
As for shifting my 'arse of the fence'...a little unfair imo, especially from someone who repeatedly boasts about how much money he's making out of Brexit.
I remain completely opposed to Brexit. I remain completely opposed to racism, xenophobia and bigotry and I loathe UKIP, the BNP and religious extremists of any persuasion...that unequivocal enough for you?
I also happen to believe that you change minds by process of reasoned debate not by resorting to name calling and abuse.
My only rule on here is not to write something I wouldn't say to someone's face...otherwise there's a risk of becoming a bit of a 'keyboard warrior' imo.
As for the debate as a whole...there's a reason that we're in this mess and a large part of that reason is that no one took any notice of the growing resentment of poorer folk in certain areas of the country who felt increasingly resentful and disenfranchised as a result of becoming a 'minority' within their own community. I don't blame immigrants for that but it is an issue which needs addressing and there is no point remaining in denial - as politicians on all sides have been inclined to be - any longer.

But then you ignore all the bile and rampant xenophobia spewed out by that arsehole Tricky in his posts, its not subtle its not even based on facts and even you got the hump when he was slagging off the germans for the sins he imagined they were responsible for - theres debate and theres people who when they spout such vicious lies should be rebutted not appeased! Reasoned debate isn't going to change his offensive views.

As for boasting about the money i'm making out of Brexit, I merely state the position which is some folks are going to wina nd others aren't and ironically its many of those who voted for Brexit who are going to lose out these poorer folk chose the wrong ****ing target!! Whats more hundreds of thousands of these poorer folk voted for the bloody Tories, the very party which created the economic mess they are in.

Your comments about thousands of poorer folk being a minority in their community does not stack up either, thats not the case in Clacton, or teeside or Sunderland or newcastle or bloody cornwall for that matter - its these sweeping generalisations that a particular problem such as immigration is the reason voted Brexit that actually make me laugh, when actually there is a series of complex issues - from people who voted Brexit because they wanted £350 million to go to the NhS, to those who voted Brexit to stop muslims coming into the country - all those that voted that way were firstly ignorant and secondly mistaken because Brexit will not achieve any of those things!

Immigration may be a problem, it isn't the problem, its one of a series of problems and using it as a scapegoat for all the nations ills won;t solve anything, after all isn't that what Hitler did when germany was on its knees economically? Pick a group we can all fixate on as being the cause of our problems?

[ramAnag]

But then you ignore all the bile and rampant xenophobia spewed out by that arsehole Tricky in his posts, its not subtle its not even based on facts and even you got the hump when he was slagging off the germans for the sins he imagined they were responsible for - theres debate and theres people who when they spout such vicious lies should be rebutted not appeased! Reasoned debate isn't going to change his offensive views.

As for boasting about the money i'm making out of Brexit, I merely state the position which is some folks are going to wina nd others aren't and ironically its many of those who voted for Brexit who are going to lose out these poorer folk chose the wrong ****ing target!! Whats more hundreds of thousands of these poorer folk voted for the bloody Tories, the very party which created the economic mess they are in.

Your comments about thousands of poorer folk being a minority in their community does not stack up either, thats not the case in Clacton, or teeside or Sunderland or newcastle or bloody cornwall for that matter - its these sweeping generalisations that a particular problem such as immigration is the reason voted Brexit that actually make me laugh, when actually there is a series of complex issues - from people who voted Brexit because they wanted £350 million to go to the NhS, to those who voted Brexit to stop muslims coming into the country - all those that voted that way were firstly ignorant and secondly mistaken because Brexit will not achieve any of those things!

Immigration may be a problem, it isn't the problem, its one of a series of problems and using it as a scapegoat for all the nations ills won;t solve anything, after all isn't that what Hitler did when germany was on its knees economically? Pick a group we can all fixate on as being the cause of our problems?

To be clear, I don't really disagree with much of the above...except...
1) You don't do yourself any favours when you lower yourself to the standards of Tricky at his worst.
2) I haven't ever said that immigration is 'the' problem and I don't believe it is. It is however part of the problem and a large part of the reason that Labour heartlands such as those in Lancashire, Yorkshire and the North East voted 'Leave'.
3) By repeatedly calling people 'ignorant' all you do is alienate them.
4) I really hope you're not suggesting that I am one of those 'picking a group we can fixate on as being the cause of all our problems'. That couldn't be further from the truth and would be truly ignorant.

[swaledale]

To be clear, I don't really disagree with much of the above...except...
1) You don't do yourself any favours when you lower yourself to the standards of Tricky at his worst.
2) I haven't ever said that immigration is 'the' problem and I don't believe it is. It is however part of the problem and a large part of the reason that Labour heartlands such as those in Lancashire, Yorkshire and the North East voted 'Leave'.
3) By repeatedly calling people 'ignorant' all you do is alienate them.
4) I really hope you're not suggesting that I am one of those 'picking a group we can fixate on as being the cause of all our problems'. That couldn't be further from the truth and would be truly ignorant.

Of course I'm not accusing you of being fixated on immigration, but you do use generalisations such as poorer folk who voted leave because they are a minority in their communities - thats a lazy generalisation and I've put forward significant areas where that isn't the case which still voted leave on the basis of an immigration issue which they don't have. i watched an interview a while back with some good working class folk in Doncaster - another area where immigration isn't the issue and without hesitation the reason they voted Leave was because of all the immigrants who ahve "taken " their jobs and the interviewer patiently pointed out that there was not a high immigrant population and there and the economic decline was not dwon to immigration and they jsut said "so what?" When reality and facts fail to influence peoples opinions then you know we are ****ed!

As for alienating ignorant people, thats their problem not mine and it will remain their problem, if you vote for a party that ****s you section of society over then why should I have any sympathy. I also get pissed off when facts which I use to back up what I post are dismissed as my opinion because it does not suit the persons views - one reason why I stopped posting on this thread, let the blind stay blind and we shall see what actually happens!

As for Tricky, I wouldn't care to breathe the same air as him, I've tried reasoned debate, all one gets is bile spewed out which is so ridiculous and hateful that all one can do is call the guy for what he is and point out the pernicious lies he posts.

I could also argue that replying to his posts as if he has an acceptable point of view only encourages him to continue in the same vein we all know where appeasement gets us!

[Andy_Faber]

I also get pissed off when facts which I use to back up what I post are dismissed as my opinion because it does not suit the persons views

No, they are dismissed because you never cite your sources. You spend too much time referring to the Daily Swale

[ramAnag]

Of course I'm not accusing you of being fixated on immigration, but you do use generalisations such as poorer folk who voted leave because they are a minority in their communities - thats a lazy generalisation and I've put forward significant areas where that isn't the case which still voted leave on the basis of an immigration issue which they don't have. i watched an interview a while back with some good working class folk in Doncaster - another area where immigration isn't the issue and without hesitation the reason they voted Leave was because of all the immigrants who ahve "taken " their jobs and the interviewer patiently pointed out that there was not a high immigrant population and there and the economic decline was not dwon to immigration and they jsut said "so what?" When reality and facts fail to influence peoples opinions then you know we are ****ed!

As for alienating ignorant people, thats their problem not mine and it will remain their problem, if you vote for a party that ****s you section of society over then why should I have any sympathy. I also get pissed off when facts which I use to back up what I post are dismissed as my opinion because it does not suit the persons views - one reason why I stopped posting on this thread, let the blind stay blind and we shall see what actually happens!

As for Tricky, I wouldn't care to breathe the same air as him, I've tried reasoned debate, all one gets is bile spewed out which is so ridiculous and hateful that all one can do is call the guy for what he is and point out the pernicious lies he posts.

I could also argue that replying to his posts as if he has an acceptable point of view only encourages him to continue in the same vein we all know where appeasement gets us!

1) Thanks...I should hope not.
2) They're not really 'lazy generalisations'. Take towns like Oldham and Rochdale...strong Labour towns with very significant immigrant populations. They're not even EU based populations but that didn't stop them voting Brexit as a reaction against the changing face of their neighbourhoods. It's about perception as much as reality. Doncaster may not have a high immigrant population but people see and hear what has happened - or imagine has happened - in not so far away places such as Bradford, Rotherham and the aforementioned Lancashire towns. That's why it's an issue and repeatedly shouting that people are ignorant will not help.
3) 'Alienating ignorant people' isn't 'their problem not mine'. It's your problem, mine and the rest of the country's now because it goes a long way to explain why the referendum resulted in Brexit.
4) I don't care for Tricky's views either. I don't know him as well as you it seems. I only take exception when people make overtly offensive comments or particularly personal ones. He has done neither to me and although I doubt I'd agree with him about very much, if anything at all, it makes more sense to me to try and reason than to resort to exchanging insults.

[Trickytreesreds]

priceless, you Swale are an arsehole.

No let me rephrase that, a NIMBY arsehole.

[ramAnag]

priceless, you Swale are an arsehole.

No let me rephrase that, a NIMBY arsehole.

Thanks for that helpful comment Tricky...and you're a moderator. Really?

[Trickytreesreds]

Thanks for that helpful comment Tricky...and you're a moderator. Really?

he deserves it ramanag, he dishes it out in buckets

[swaledale]

No, they are dismissed because you never cite your sources. You spend too much time referring to the Daily Swale

Utter *******s because i provide sources and never hear a peep again, from you especially!

[swaledale]

he deserves it ramanag, he dishes it out in buckets

Ah diddums not like his right wing fantasies being queried then?

[swaledale]

priceless, you Swale are an arsehole.

No let me rephrase that, a NIMBY arsehole.

NIMBY how do you work that one out? Your a xenophobic thick arsehole, no srtike that arseholes are useful your clearly not.

[Andy_Faber]

NIMBY how do you work that one out? Your a xenophobic thick arsehole, no srtike that arseholes are useful your clearly not.

Don't let all that anger mess with your grammar, Swale

[Andy_Faber]

Utter *******s because i provide sources and never hear a peep again, from you especially!

Ok Swale, cite your source for 'the only reason we did not follow the French is due to 22 miles of sea between us and Europe' and we'll have a natter about that shall we?

[swaledale]

Ok Swale, cite your source for 'the only reason we did not follow the French is due to 22 miles of sea between us and Europe' and we'll have a natter about that shall we?

So your disputing that? Its a correct historical assessment and not one I've made, I'm sure if you do a bit of research you will find it, but tell me what would have stopped the german advance as the defeated expeditionary force fled in a shambles to Dunkirk if the channel hadn't been an obstacle?

[Andy_Faber]

So your disputing that? Its a correct historical assessment and not one I've made, I'm sure if you do a bit of research you will find it, but tell me what would have stopped the german advance as the defeated expeditionary force fled in a shambles to Dunkirk if the channel hadn't been an obstacle?

Cite your sources or it's just your opinion