OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

You weren't to know R but I have a Spanish national insurance number. Pay their taxes,eat in Spanish places and (pathetically) hablo espanol. No offence taken

Fair cop...no offence intended. I'm genuinely impressed with anyone who goes to the lengths of learning another language and make a point (probably much more pathetically) of always trying to at least make myself understood in the language of whichever country I'm in...Spain (Axarquia) also for me in September.
Returning to the main point however...don't the majority of UK born and bred/based Muslims fit the same criteria as far as language, insurance numbers and taxes are concerned?

[Andy_Faber]

..don't the majority of UK born and bred/based Muslims fit the same criteria as far as language, insurance numbers and taxes are concerned?

Quite possibly but whereas the poles, Irish, Indians, Chinese, Malaysians etc in broad terms 'embrace' our way of life and to some extent integrate over time, many Muslims appear to me (through observation and a couple of direct experiences) to be unwilling to do either unless it is on their terms, a situation that has now been recognised at govt level

[swaledale]

Swales " At least I'm capable of sentient thought which you clearly are not " You should think about that with your repeated bullying of R4j.

WTF are you on about, I've hardly interacted with that poster as he is on my ignore list, you would be better casting your eyes at other posters who have not let up on him!

[Andy_Faber]

Fair cop...no offence intended. I'm genuinely impressed with anyone who goes to the lengths of learning another language and make a point (probably much more pathetically) of always trying to at least make myself understood in the language of whichever country I'm in...Spain (Axarquia) also for me in September.
Returning to the main point however...don't the majority of UK born and bred/based Muslims fit the same criteria as far as language, insurance numbers and taxes are concerned?

R, I noticed your earlier brave attempt to define xenophobia, you truly are the fellah who stands between two drunks urging them to stop fighting, only to get ****ted by both. Further in that post you attempt to liken Asian/Muslim grooming gangs to white pedo loners, but I think that actually helps prove the other point. White pedos, when discovered, are reviled and ostracised within their communities, and even subject to summary justice. The grooming gangs, however, were for the most part defended/protected by the grass roots of their communities, who in many cases are documented as having not seen it as a crime because it was inflicted on white girls. The shame I feel is that the police force that I/we pay our taxes to sustain and that I naively believed would always do the right thing, condoned/allowed such behaviour because of 'cultural sensitivities'

My issue with this subject though is not as it happens related to grooming gangs

[ramAnag]

Quite possibly but whereas the poles, Irish, Indians, Chinese, Malaysians etc in broad terms 'embrace' our way of life and to some extent integrate over time, many Muslims appear to me (through observation and a couple of direct experiences) to be unwilling to do either unless it is on their terms, a situation that has now been recognised at govt level

Maybe it's not been as easy for Muslims to integrate because of their attitude to alcohol - the common currency of socialisation - and because of the lingering resentment towards Pakistanis in particular from some sections of the white community.
Indians, Chinese and West Indians have perhaps been more easily 'assimilated' via their contributions to food, in the first two instances, and sport and popular culture in the third. Not so long ago Indians and 'Chinkies' struggled for acceptance and idiots were throwing bananas at black footballers. All that has thankfully changed - our tastes with it - and hopefully it will with Muslims too. Haven't noticed too many complaints about Mo Farah or Moeen Ali, England's man of the series, recently.

[Trickytreesreds]

Can we all establish what is understood by 'xenophobia' before rushing to judge. I offer this description...

'...fear and mistrust of what is perceived to be foreign or strange...including a fear of losing identity, suspicion of its activities, aggression and desire to eliminate its presence to secure a presumed purity'.

I don't think that's so wide of the mark as far as TTR is concerned but let's just consider this in relation to the perception of Muslims in this country for a moment. There can be no doubt that there has been/may still be a problem with 'grooming gangs' in this country and that the majority of those gangs are of Pakistani/Muslim origin. To deny this would be irresponsible. Equally there can be no doubt that such gangs represent a minority, that the vast majority of Muslims in this country are perfectly well behaved, socially responsible individuals and that actually the majority of child abuse in this country is conducted by white males acting at an individual level.

The difference between the more level headed and logical approach to this situation and the xenophobic approach is that while the former will recognise the balance I have described, the xenophobe will concentrate solely on the negative. I would suggest that this is very much the case where TTR's attitude to Germans and Syrians, at least, is concerned and that therefore the term 'xenophobe' - which isn't actually the greatest of insults - in relation to Tricky is not without foundation.

lol you accuse me of xenophobia with Germans?
I go there at least 4 times a year and love it.
Want pics?

[ramAnag]

R, I noticed your earlier brave attempt to define xenophobia, you truly are the fellah who stands between two drunks urging them to stop fighting, only to get ****ted by both. Further in that post you attempt to liken Asian/Muslim grooming gangs to white pedo loners, but I think that actually helps prove the other point. White pedos, when discovered, are reviled and ostracised within their communities, and even subject to summary justice. The grooming gangs, however, were for the most part defended/protected by the grass roots of their communities, who in many cases are documented as having not seen it as a crime because it was inflicted on white girls. The shame I feel is that the police force that I/we pay our taxes to sustain and that I naively believed would always do the right thing, condoned/allowed such behaviour because of 'cultural sensitivities'

My issue with this subject though is not as it happens related to grooming gangs

I don't think it was a brave attempt. No point in discussing something that people define differently. Neither was I really 'likening' grooming gangs to 'white *****s'. The point I was making was that the grooming gangs are remembered and used as an 'example' by xenophobes when in fact more child abuse is perpetrated by white males but that goes largely uncommented on.

Actually '*****' is a misnomer anyway, but this is an area where I can claim some previous professional expertise and although I share your concern about the way SOME amongst the Muslim communities, SOME of the police and SOME local politicians conspired to conceal the truth, I think it is dreadfully naive of you to suppose that white perpetrators of child abuse are routinely 'given up' and reviled by their communities. Believe me that is all too often not the case at all...why do you think it took so long to identify what Jimmy Savile and Grenville Janner had been involved in? Why do we still await any sort of conclusion - or even organised investigation - into allegations of historical child abuse by politicians and dignitaries from the eighties...and they honestly are just the more infamous cases.

P.S. No pics thanks Tricky...and I haven't accused you of anything at all. I've offered a definition of 'xenophobia' which you do not seem so very far away from fitting. As for you 'loving' Germany...one can only suppose that you keep your often stated negative opinions on that country to yourself while on your '4 times a year' trips.

[mistaram]

Swales I'm loving your selective memory you r supposed t

[mistaram]

Swales. I'm loving your selective memory you are supposed to have put R4j on Ignored on the 13-04 2017 yet you have replied either directly or indirectly to his post 68times since If you don't think saying ( trying to ascertain whether you went to a special school ) is not bullying I don't know what is Don't bother replying because most people on here know exactly what you are

[Andy_Faber]

I don't think it was a brave attempt. No point in discussing something that people define differently. Neither was I really 'likening' grooming gangs to 'white *****s'. The point I was making was that the grooming gangs are remembered and used as an 'example' by xenophobes when in fact more child abuse is perpetrated by white males but that goes largely uncommented on.

Actually '*****' is a misnomer anyway, but this is an area where I can claim some previous professional expertise and although I share your concern about the way SOME amongst the Muslim communities, SOME of the police and SOME local politicians conspired to conceal the truth, I think it is dreadfully naive of you to suppose that white perpetrators of child abuse are routinely 'given up' and reviled by their communities. Believe me that is all too often not the case at all...why do you think it took so long to identify what Jimmy Savile and Grenville Janner had been involved in? Why do we still await any sort of conclusion - or even organised investigation - into allegations of historical child abuse by politicians and dignitaries from the eighties...and they honestly are just the more infamous cases.

P.S. No pics thanks Tricky...and I haven't accused you of anything at all. I've offered a definition of 'xenophobia' which you do not seem so very far away from fitting. As for you 'loving' Germany...one can only suppose that you keep your often stated negative opinions on that country to yourself while on your '4 times a year' trips.

You've accepted my greater insight at various times and I'll accept yours here. One thing I will say though is that Saville/Janner/Jonathan King etc are from 'the age of deference', which I HOPE we are progressively seeing our way out of, whereas Asian/Muslim grooming is seen as part of a movement 'on the rise'.

Not sure if I mentioned, but I read 'In Plain sight' (Dan Davies in a 'just too late' expose of Saville) and Seven Deadly Sins (David Walsh pursuing the truth about Lance Armstrong, Walsh deserves a statue erecting somewhere IMO) and as well as making my blood boil for ten days of a holiday, they opened my eyes to the ghastly inclination of people to protect others when there's no morality in doing so - back to deference I guess

[ramAnag]

Thanks for that Andy. Take your point about the 'age of deference'...it was, to an extent a different time, and yet the conspiracy continues. As I understand it, from reliable but undisclosable sources, there remain a number of senior politicians, senior policemen and judges who remain unexposed and unprosecuted from the eighties and the nineties. To an extent, but only to an extent, the Catholic Church has taken steps to address the child abuse which it was complicit in during the same period...beyond that the rest live on, or perhaps not, with reputations intact and that imo, is a disgrace.

At a more first hand level I have lost count of the number of case conferences and reviews that I have sat through where totally indefensible parents/'carers' have 'enjoyed' the protection of the law in the form of some amoral scumbag solicitor. The nature of my job at the time, and I have to accept that I am going back ten years or so now, meant that I, along with many much maligned social workers, had heard graphic accounts of what was actually going on behind closed doors but we were rendered virtually powerless to speak up unless the 'evidence' was utterly overwhelming which often, with more vulnerable and less articulate young people, it wasn't.
The same is unfortunately true right up to the time of any possible court appearance and twice I have been within minutes of giving evidence in court only for these same parents to have 'got to' their children/victims and effectively 'bribed' them to withdraw their evidence.
By coincidence perhaps, I can only think of one incident where a mixed race girl was the victim of her white Catholic grandfather's behaviour and West Indian father's absence/indifference. The rest were universally white but the horrible truth is that child abuse and child ***ual abuse within the family environment is far more widespread than we might like to imagine.

[Andy_Faber]

Thanks for that Andy. Take your point about the 'age of deference'...it was, to an extent a different time, and yet the conspiracy continues. As I understand it, from reliable but undisclosable sources, there remain a number of senior politicians, senior policemen and judges who remain unexposed and unprosecuted from the eighties and the nineties. To an extent, but only to an extent, the Catholic Church has taken steps to address the child abuse which it was complicit in during the same period...beyond that the rest live on, or perhaps not, with reputations intact and that imo, is a disgrace.

At a more first hand level I have lost count of the number of case conferences and reviews that I have sat through where totally indefensible parents/'carers' have 'enjoyed' the protection of the law in the form of some amoral scumbag solicitor. The nature of my job at the time, and I have to accept that I am going back ten years or so now, meant that I, along with many much maligned social workers, had heard graphic accounts of what was actually going on behind closed doors but we were rendered virtually powerless to speak up unless the 'evidence' was utterly overwhelming which often, with more vulnerable and less articulate young people, it wasn't.
The same is unfortunately true right up to the time of any possible court appearance and twice I have been within minutes of giving evidence in court only for these same parents to have 'got to' their children/victims and effectively 'bribed' them to withdraw their evidence.
By coincidence perhaps, I can only think of one incident where a mixed race girl was the victim of her white Catholic grandfather's behaviour and West Indian father's absence/indifference. The rest were universally white but the horrible truth is that child abuse and child ***ual abuse within the family environment is far more widespread than we might like to imagine.

Agreeing totally with your first paragraph.

[Trickytreesreds]

I don't think it was a brave attempt. No point in discussing something that people define differently. Neither was I really 'likening' grooming gangs to 'white *****s'. The point I was making was that the grooming gangs are remembered and used as an 'example' by xenophobes when in fact more child abuse is perpetrated by white males but that goes largely uncommented on.

Actually '*****' is a misnomer anyway, but this is an area where I can claim some previous professional expertise and although I share your concern about the way SOME amongst the Muslim communities, SOME of the police and SOME local politicians conspired to conceal the truth, I think it is dreadfully naive of you to suppose that white perpetrators of child abuse are routinely 'given up' and reviled by their communities. Believe me that is all too often not the case at all...why do you think it took so long to identify what Jimmy Savile and Grenville Janner had been involved in? Why do we still await any sort of conclusion - or even organised investigation - into allegations of historical child abuse by politicians and dignitaries from the eighties...and they honestly are just the more infamous cases.

P.S. No pics thanks Tricky...and I haven't accused you of anything at all. I've offered a definition of 'xenophobia' which you do not seem so very far away from fitting. As for you 'loving' Germany...one can only suppose that you keep your often stated negative opinions on that country to yourself while on your '4 times a year' trips.

Definition of xenophobia
: fear and hatred of strangers or foreigners or of anything that is strange or foreign

If that was the case, I would never leave my back yard, nor would I talk to anyone other my brethren.
I wouldn't try to talk French/German/Spanish or Marsian when travelling

You are sounding like Swale now. That is disappointing.
All I have ever asked for is controlled borders. I'll pay your £5 visa fee, I'll queue at you passport controls.
It doesn't bother me. I expect no less coming this way, if it keeps me out of EU government.

[ramAnag]

Definition of xenophobia
: fear and hatred of strangers or foreigners or of anything that is strange or foreign

If that was the case, I would never leave my back yard, nor would I talk to anyone other my brethren.
I wouldn't try to talk French/German/Spanish or Marsian when travelling

You are sounding like Swale now. That is disappointing.
All I have ever asked for is controlled borders. I'll pay your £5 visa fee, I'll queue at you passport controls.
It doesn't bother me. I expect no less coming this way, if it keeps me out of EU government.

Bored with this now.
1) Over simplified and meaningless 'definition' of xenophobia.
2) Yes you would, you might just be uneasy/uncomfortable.
3) Have you met many Martians? Wouldn't surprise me.
4) No I'm not...I haven't called you a 't**t'.
5) That would be illegal and impossible.
6) The EU don't govern us.

[Trickytreesreds]

Swales. I'm loving your selective memory you are supposed to have put R4j on Ignored on the 13-04 2017 yet you have replied either directly or indirectly to his post 68times since If you don't think saying ( trying to ascertain whether you went to a special school ) is not bullying I don't know what is Don't bother replying because most people on here know exactly what you are

He hasn't put anyone on ignore. Full of ****