OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

Aye Tricky...course he was real...and there's historical (tourist trap) evidence to suggest he came from Loxley (Sheffield), Nottingham, Hathersage, Lincoln and Doncaster amongst others. The Lone Ranger has as much credibility and don't tell me Tonto wasn't real.

As for your other point...you do know that your hero Winston Churchill was amongst the first to call for a 'United States of Europe' don't you?

[Trickytreesreds]

Aye Tricky...course he was real...and there's historical (tourist trap) evidence to suggest he came from Loxley (Sheffield), Nottingham, Hathersage, Lincoln and Doncaster amongst others. The Lone Ranger has as much credibility and don't tell me Tonto wasn't real.

As for your other point...you do know that your hero Winston Churchill was amongst the first to call for a 'United States of Europe' don't you?

The film is there, what more proof do you need?

And Churchill survived in politics as what?
He was a good war leader ( ironically sorting Germany out). Yet amounted to nothing in peace time.

Case closed.

[Trickytreesreds]

The film is there, what more proof do you need?

And Churchill survived in politics as what?
He was a good war leader ( ironically sorting Germany out). Yet amounted to nothing in peace time.

Case closed.

You see ramanag, that comment is exactly what I talk about by only printing a comment. Look at what was actually said and the wording.
In the summer of 1930, inspired by the ideas being floated by Aristide Briand and by his recent tour of the US in the autumn of 1929, Churchill wrote an article lamenting the instability which had been caused by the independence of Poland and the disintegration of Austria-Hungary into petty states, and called for a "United States of Europe", although he wrote that Britain was "with Europe but not of it".[291]

Ideas about closer European union continued to circulate, driven by Paul-Henri Spaak, from 1942 onwards.[292] As early as March 1943 a Churchill speech on postwar reconstruction annoyed the US administration not only by not mentioning China as a great power but by proposing a purely European "Council of Europe". Harry Hopkins passed on President Roosevelt's concerns, warning Eden that it would "give free ammunition to (US) isolationists" who might propose an American "regional council". Churchill urged Eden, on a visit to the US at the time, to "listen politely" but give "no countenance" to Roosevelt's proposals for the US, UK, USSR and Chiang Kai-shek's China to act together to enforce "Global Collective Security" with the Japanese and French Empires taken into international trusteeship.[293]

Now out of office, Churchill gave a speech at Zurich on 19 September 1946 in which he called for "a kind of United States of Europe" centred around a Franco-German partnership, with Britain and the Commonwealth, and perhaps the US, as "friends and sponsors of the new Europe". The Times wrote of him "startling the world" with "outrageous propositions" and warned that there was as yet little appetite for such unity, and that he appeared to be assuming a permanent division between Eastern and Western Europe, and urged "more humdrum" economic agreements. Churchill's speech was praised by Leo Amery and by Count Coudenhove-Kalergi who wrote that it would galvanise governments into action.[294][295]

Churchill expressed similar sentiments at a meeting of the Primrose League at the Albert Hall on 18 May 1947. He declared "let Europe arise" but was "absolutely clear" that "we shall allow no wedge to be driven between Britain and the United States". Churchill's speeches helped to encourage the foundation of the Council of Europe.[295][296]

In June 1950, Churchill was strongly critical of the Attlee Government's failure to send British representatives to Paris (to discuss the Schuman Plan for setting up the European Coal and Steel Community), declaring that les absents ont toujours tort and calling it "a squalid attitude" which "derange(d) the balance of Europe", and risked Germany dominating the new grouping. He called for world unity through the UN (against the backdrop of the communist invasion of South Korea), while stressing that Britain was uniquely placed to exert leadership through her links to the Commonwealth, the US and Europe.[297] However, Churchill did not want Britain to actually join any federal grouping.[298][299][300] In September 1951 a declaration of the American, French and British foreign ministers welcomed the Schuman plan, stressing that it would revive economic growth and encourage the development of a democratic Germany, part of the Atlantic community.[301]

[ramAnag]

Tricky...I only bring this up because Daily Express reading Brexiteers such as yourself seem fixated with identifying the iconic image of Churchill with the Brexit cause. In other ways it actually has little relevance to what we are currently being dragged towards by the increasingly isolated and idiotic looking David Davis but here are a few quotes.

In 1930 Churchill wrote...

'The concept of a United States of Europe is right.'

'We are bound to further every honest and practical step which the nations of Europe may make to reduce barriers which divide them and to nourish their common interests and their common welfare.'

Thirty years on he wrote...

'I think that the Government is right to apply to join the EEC.'

'We might well play a great part in these developments to the profit of not only ourselves but of our European friends also.'

Finally, just two years before his death in early 1965 he wrote...

'The future of Europe if Britain were to be excluded is black indeed.'

Hardly an anti-European was he? Not totally relevant today perhaps but the message is clear...Britain and Europe are stronger working together. As it happens I am currently in Andalusia and cannot imagine a culture less dominated by your mythical EUSSR...a place where Spanish, Dutch, Poles, Germans, a few French and plenty of Brits just get on together with only a few disbelieving comments regarding our arrogance at imagining we are the 'special ones' who can go it alone and wriggle out of the deal's we committed to.

[Romanis]

Sweet Moses, is this thread going to continue until we actually leave the EU.

That would mean we have another 2 years of Tricky's hogwash!

God help us....

[Trickytreesreds]

Tricky...I only bring this up because Daily Express reading Brexiteers such as yourself seem fixated with identifying the iconic image of Churchill with the Brexit cause. In other ways it actually has little relevance to what we are currently being dragged towards by the increasingly isolated and idiotic looking David Davis but here are a few quotes.

In 1930 Churchill wrote...

'The concept of a United States of Europe is right.'

'We are bound to further every honest and practical step which the nations of Europe may make to reduce barriers which divide them and to nourish their common interests and their common welfare.'

Thirty years on he wrote...

'I think that the Government is right to apply to join the EEC.'

'We might well play a great part in these developments to the profit of not only ourselves but of our European friends also.'

Finally, just two years before his death in early 1965 he wrote...

'The future of Europe if Britain were to be excluded is black indeed.'

Hardly an anti-European was he? Not totally relevant today perhaps but the message is clear...Britain and Europe are stronger working together. As it happens I am currently in Andalusia and cannot imagine a culture less dominated by your mythical EUSSR...a place where Spanish, Dutch, Poles, Germans, a few French and plenty of Brits just get on together with only a few disbelieving comments regarding our arrogance at imagining we are the 'special ones' who can go it alone and wriggle out of the deal's we committed to.

Arhhhh, but did he envisage a Europe of political dominance? One government/one president/ One financial over lord/ one law/ one monetary system? He was leaning toward a UN style of co operation, where people voted and came to common agreement. Read what I quoted again. It is in there. Juncker has revealed the real intention.

[Trickytreesreds]

Sweet Moses, is this thread going to continue until we actually leave the EU.

That would mean we have another 2 years of Tricky's hogwash!

God help us....

Oh be quiet you dolt. You don't even live in Europe.

[Trickytreesreds]

You see ramanag, that comment is exactly what I talk about by only printing a comment. Look at what was actually said and the wording.
In the summer of 1930, inspired by the ideas being floated by Aristide Briand and by his recent tour of the US in the autumn of 1929, Churchill wrote an article lamenting the instability which had been caused by the independence of Poland and the disintegration of Austria-Hungary into petty states, and called for a "United States of Europe", although he wrote that Britain was "with Europe but not of it".[291]

Ideas about closer European union continued to circulate, driven by Paul-Henri Spaak, from 1942 onwards.[292] As early as March 1943 a Churchill speech on postwar reconstruction annoyed the US administration not only by not mentioning China as a great power but by proposing a purely European "Council of Europe". Harry Hopkins passed on President Roosevelt's concerns, warning Eden that it would "give free ammunition to (US) isolationists" who might propose an American "regional council". Churchill urged Eden, on a visit to the US at the time, to "listen politely" but give "no countenance" to Roosevelt's proposals for the US, UK, USSR and Chiang Kai-shek's China to act together to enforce "Global Collective Security" with the Japanese and French Empires taken into international trusteeship.[293]

Now out of office, Churchill gave a speech at Zurich on 19 September 1946 in which he called for "a kind of United States of Europe" centred around a Franco-German partnership, with Britain and the Commonwealth, and perhaps the US, as "friends and sponsors of the new Europe". The Times wrote of him "startling the world" with "outrageous propositions" and warned that there was as yet little appetite for such unity, and that he appeared to be assuming a permanent division between Eastern and Western Europe, and urged "more humdrum" economic agreements. Churchill's speech was praised by Leo Amery and by Count Coudenhove-Kalergi who wrote that it would galvanise governments into action.[294][295]

Churchill expressed similar sentiments at a meeting of the Primrose League at the Albert Hall on 18 May 1947. He declared "let Europe arise" but was "absolutely clear" that "we shall allow no wedge to be driven between Britain and the United States". Churchill's speeches helped to encourage the foundation of the Council of Europe.[295][296]

In June 1950, Churchill was strongly critical of the Attlee Government's failure to send British representatives to Paris (to discuss the Schuman Plan for setting up the European Coal and Steel Community), declaring that les absents ont toujours tort and calling it "a squalid attitude" which "derange(d) the balance of Europe", and risked Germany dominating the new grouping. He called for world unity through the UN (against the backdrop of the communist invasion of South Korea), while stressing that Britain was uniquely placed to exert leadership through her links to the Commonwealth, the US and Europe.[297] However, Churchill did not want Britain to actually join any federal grouping.[298][299][300] In September 1951 a declaration of the American, French and British foreign ministers welcomed the Schuman plan, stressing that it would revive economic growth and encourage the development of a democratic Germany, part of the Atlantic community.[301]

Churchill's speeches helped to encourage the foundation of the Council of Europe.[295][296]

He called for world unity through the UN (against the backdrop of the communist invasion of South Korea), while stressing that Britain was uniquely placed to exert leadership through her links to the Commonwealth, the US and Europe

Churchill did not want Britain to actually join any federal grouping.[298][299][300] In September 1951 a declaration of the American, French and British foreign ministers welcomed the Schuman plan, stressing that it would revive economic growth and encourage the development of a democratic Germany, part of the Atlantic community.[301][/QUOTE]

[ramAnag]

Sweet Moses, is this thread going to continue until we actually leave the EU.

That would mean we have another 2 years of Tricky's hogwash!

God help us....

Like!!!

[Trickytreesreds]

Remoaners, talk about leavers lying. Have you considered you may have been duped?


No EU army.
No plans for a superstate.
No plans to make the UK join the Euro.
No fiscal integration.
No 'loss of sovereignty'.
No EU 'government'.
No extension of Schengen.

Well Monsieur Junkman quashed that lot in a single speech. We should thank him.


Merci beaucoup

[ramAnag]

Remoaners, talk about leavers lying. Have you considered you may have been duped?


No EU army.
No plans for a superstate.
No plans to make the UK join the Euro.
No fiscal integration.
No 'loss of sovereignty'.
No EU 'government'.
No extension of Schengen.

Well Monsieur Junkman quashed that lot in a single speech. We should thank him.


Merci beaucoup

What use is so called 'sovereignty' if it reduces the well being, in terms of security and prosperity, of UK citizens?
Talk about being duped. You're deluded Tricky.

[Trickytreesreds]

What use is so called 'sovereignty' if it reduces the well being, in terms of security and prosperity, of UK citizens?
Talk about being duped. You're deluded Tricky.

Security?

LOL, after everything happening and blowing up around Europe, then the ECHR telling us to give them a hug? pmsl

[ramAnag]

You may not have noticed but there have been attacks in London and Manchester too. Not entirely sure how incidents throughout Europe, including the UK, can be a source of such amusement to you but I remain convinced that, at a time when World peace is threatened to the extent that it currently is by both terrorism and more powerful forces, then a united Europe - again including the UK - is highly desirable.
Notice you didn't challenge the 'prosperity' bit!

[Trickytreesreds]

You may not have noticed but there have been attacks in London and Manchester too. Not entirely sure how incidents throughout Europe, including the UK, can be a source of such amusement to you but I remain convinced that, at a time when World peace is threatened to the extent that it currently is by both terrorism and more powerful forces, then a united Europe - again including the UK - is highly desirable.
Notice you didn't challenge the 'prosperity' bit!

I will challenge the prosperity bit. The world will become an open door. Where we go is down to us. You doom merchants may enjoy your monsters under the bed stories.

As for the EU. Open borders have allowed terrorists to slip across Europe at will. Ours appear to be home grown. With throwing out of the ECHR, maybe the police will have a bit more bollox to deal with them, like the groomers.
You may want a USE, but many of us don't. That is what has always scared me, that we was being lead up a garden path by stealth.
Cats out the bag now though. You and Swale cannot deny it anymore.

[ramAnag]

I will challenge the prosperity bit. The world will become an open door. Where we go is down to us. You doom merchants may enjoy your monsters under the bed stories.

As for the EU. Open borders have allowed terrorists to slip across Europe at will. Ours appear to be home grown. With throwing out of the ECHR, maybe the police will have a bit more bollox to deal with them, like the groomers.
You may want a USE, but many of us don't. That is what has always scared me, that we was being lead up a garden path by stealth.
Cats out the bag now though. You and Swale cannot deny it anymore.

'The World will become an open door'...yeah right...just like that...everyone queuing to do the good old UK a favour.

Not sure where all your 'cat's out of the bag' talk has come from. Bit out of the loop with no TV or newspaper at the moment so bare with me.
Can't see how a USE is that likely. A united Europe I think is highly desirable...a USE seems less likely. The difference between the USA - where there are still actually huge differences in legislation between individual states - and any notion of a USE is that the countries of Europe are far more disparate with longer and more established traditions, different languages and cultures etc.
We aren't the only ones with notions of national pride so what makes you think the Spanish, Germans, French and Italians etc are all going to surrender their identity and sovereignty so willingly?

I don't think it's Swale and I who fear 'monsters under the bed'...I should watch that wardrobe door tonight.