OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[roger_ramjet]

Take your point about taxation, Andy, but I think we have to, at some point, recognise that tax can be a good thing provided that the money raised is targeted properly.
As for the referendum point...it was partly ‘tongue in cheek’, but the serious point is...if, and I agree again, the electorate can’t be trusted with such decisions, then wtf were they ever given the ‘vote’ over our future role in Europe? Totally senseless imo.

Also agree with MA about Foreign Aid.

Foreign Aid - limited to impoverished nations for sure; also tie in more directly to future trade agreements, especially as we are about to break the restrictive shackles of EU trade agreements. but aid to BRIC and Tiger economies? Really? I dont buy MA's argument of "reparation for past sins" - it smacks rather of the compensation for slavery argument. Next the Italians will be asking for money off the Germans since Attila the Hun destroyed Rome. This though could be a growth are in the next 10 years as we try to work our way into preferential trade deals with emerging economies: reality is that charity is a two way street....

Earnings related taxation is in many ways a flawed concept: move onto a consumption based taxation system and many of the flaws in the current system will be eliminated (as would be my job!!). No need for anti avoidance measures although no doubt there will be new ways found to get round a consumption tax. Have a basic flat rate tax on essentials such as food, clothes, housing etc and then a luxury tax on non essentials such as cars (although allow a tesco blue label car as an essential) electronics, holidays etc

A consumption based tax would be augmented by some sort of savings/global wealth tax to make the haves pay more than the have nots, which is where the complications should arise. So abolish income tax, boost VAT and introduce an assets based tax. Simples (and you can sneak in some bracket creep which always happens in radical change!)

[ramAnag]

Foreign Aid - limited to impoverished nations for sure; also tie in more directly to future trade agreements, especially as we are about to break the restrictive shackles of EU trade agreements. but aid to BRIC and Tiger economies? Really? I dont buy MA's argument of "reparation for past sins" - it smacks rather of the compensation for slavery argument. Next the Italians will be asking for money off the Germans since Attila the Hun destroyed Rome. This though could be a growth are in the next 10 years as we try to work our way into preferential trade deals with emerging economies: reality is that charity is a two way street....

Earnings related taxation is in many ways a flawed concept: move onto a consumption based taxation system and many of the flaws in the current system will be eliminated (as would be my job!!). No need for anti avoidance measures although no doubt there will be new ways found to get round a consumption tax. Have a basic flat rate tax on essentials such as food, clothes, housing etc and then a luxury tax on non essentials such as cars (although allow a tesco blue label car as an essential) electronics, holidays etc

A consumption based tax would be augmented by some sort of savings/global wealth tax to make the haves pay more than the have nots, which is where the complications should arise. So abolish income tax, boost VAT and introduce an assets based tax. Simples (and you can sneak in some bracket creep which always happens in radical change!)

Very interesting!

Don’t agree about foreign aid being conditional upon future trade agreements though. Surely aid shlould be directed to where it is most needed regardless...or is altruism entirely dead (silly question).

[Ram59]

HS2 is always looked at in a simplistic view of spending all that money so that us brummies can get to London 20 minutes quicker. The facts are that the rail system is vastly overcrowded, even Corbyn can't find a seat. Why did we build the M1 when we had a perfectly good A1 trunk road?

So what's the solution, increase the 2 tracks up to 4? This would be nigh on impossible, every bridge would have to be rebuilt, as would the current stations and buildings near to the tracks demolished and think of the many years of disruption to the existing rail traffic.

So the sensible answer is to build a new line causing as little disturbance as possible and while we are building this new line, lets make it a quick one for very little extra cost. Could you imagine the fuss if it was made to be as slow as the rest of the network.

This is coming from a person who's one man business in rented premises is getting evicted with no little or no compensation.

[roger_ramjet]

Very interesting!

Don’t agree about foreign aid being conditional upon future trade agreements though. Surely aid shlould be directed to where it is most needed regardless...or is altruism entirely dead (silly question).

Altruism long dead to my mind

[ramAnag]

Altruism long dead to my mind

...I agree Rog, sadly...but the flags you spoke of last week would seem to be unfurled and fluttering very enthusiastically after tonight.

[swaledale]

HS2 is always looked at in a simplistic view of spending all that money so that us brummies can get to London 20 minutes quicker. The facts are that the rail system is vastly overcrowded, even Corbyn can't find a seat. Why did we build the M1 when we had a perfectly good A1 trunk road?

So what's the solution, increase the 2 tracks up to 4? This would be nigh on impossible, every bridge would have to be rebuilt, as would the current stations and buildings near to the tracks demolished and think of the many years of disruption to the existing rail traffic.

So the sensible answer is to build a new line causing as little disturbance as possible and while we are building this new line, lets make it a quick one for very little extra cost. Could you imagine the fuss if it was made to be as slow as the rest of the network.

This is coming from a person who's one man business in rented premises is getting evicted with no little or no compensation.

Spot on, people totally miss the point, the railways are virtually untouched since victorian times, the point of a new high speed link is that long distance passenger traffic will use the new route and free up capacity on the existing routes there is no practical alternative, but as usual people cannot see the long term benefits.

[ramAnag]

Tbf, Swale and Ram59...I don’t pretend to know enough about HS2 to pass judgement. My point was that it was always the height of absurdity to give ‘Joe Public’ the vote (via uninformed referendum) on our European future and that point was illustrated by saying that we wouldn’t dream of deciding how public money should be spent in other areas...HS2 amongst them...in the same way, so why suddenly have a referendum on such a complex issue?
Last night’s Question Time from Barnsley was further proof, if proof is still required, of how ridiculous the whole concept was when someone of Robert Winston’s intellect and understanding was afforded the same vote as some of the half wits in the audience and I never thought I’d say this but...well done Nicky Morgan.

[MadAmster]

Having lived here for 33 years, Brexit has enticed me to do something I never thought I would do. As of this morning I am officially Dutch and now enjoy dual nationality. Whatever happens, in, out, shake it all about, I have guaranteed my own freedom of movement within the EU. Purely selfish reasons, admittedly, but when I travel with the family, I don't want to have to have to get in a different queue to them at Customs and passport control. I know of a lot of Brits over here making the same move as me and there are also a lot back home taking advantage of, a sometimes tenuous, link to Ireland and other countries in order to guarantee freedom of movement.

[ramAnag]

Having lived here for 33 years, Brexit has enticed me to do something I never thought I would do. As of this morning I am officially Dutch and now enjoy dual nationality. Whatever happens, in, out, shake it all about, I have guaranteed my own freedom of movement within the EU. Purely selfish reasons, admittedly, but when I travel with the family, I don't want to have to have to get in a different queue to them at Customs and passport control. I know of a lot of Brits over here making the same move as me and there are also a lot back home taking advantage of, a sometimes tenuous, link to Ireland and other countries in order to guarantee freedom of movement.

Hartelijk gefeliciteerd Mr. Amster...I think.

[MadAmster]

Hartelijk gefeliciteerd Mr. Amster...I think.

Many thanks AnagramMan. Google translate does some things exceedingly well and this, I suspect, is one of them. Even if it had been wrong, it's always the thought that counts so, once again, I thank you.

[roger_ramjet]

Interesting....I thought the dual nationality thing with EU countries was one of the things that would go with Brexit? Better find me a Romanian girl to secure my EU retiement bolthole in the sun....or maybe Transylvanian twilight

[MadAmster]

Interesting....I thought the dual nationality thing with EU countries was one of the things that would go with Brexit? Better find me a Romanian girl to secure my EU retiement bolthole in the sun....or maybe Transylvanian twilight

I think you will find that it will affect applications AFTER Brexit (if it ever happens). Those like me who already have dual nationality can keep it. New applicants after Brexit will probably have to renounce their old nationality provided they are allowed to. Some countries, like Turkey (not in the EU, I know), do not permit nationals to renounce their Turkdom.

[ramAnag]

Many thanks AnagramMan. Google translate does some things exceedingly well and this, I suspect, is one of them. Even if it had been wrong, it's always the thought that counts so, once again, I thank you.

You suspect correctly...I have a minimal (polite) amount of Spanish, German, Italian and French - enough to avoid total ignorance on holiday (just) - but absolutely no Dutch.
Any Dutch people I’ve met have always spoken perfect English (American) and thereby lies part of our problem...we, the British, arrogantly expect everyone to do things our way.

I have a Transylvanian dentist, Rog...really. She’s very nice actually and I find it always adds a little spice to the dreaded proceedings.

[roger_ramjet]

You suspect correctly...I have a minimal (polite) amount of Spanish, German, Italian and French - enough to avoid total ignorance on holiday (just) - but absolutely no Dutch.
Any Dutch people I’ve met have always spoken perfect English (American) and thereby lies part of our problem...we, the British, arrogantly expect everyone to do things our way.

Its not really current generation arrogance it's because (a) English is the most widely spoke language (albeit not the language spoken by the most people) (b) English is the persistent language of international business (c) the Americans speak it and its as much their arrogance / introvert nature that means they will always use their own *******isation of the language (d) the English are lazy ****ers and dont feel the need to learn other languages - myself included!

Also we invented speaking and so we is right, yeah?

[ramAnag]

Its not really current generation arrogance it's because (a) English is the most widely spoke language (albeit not the language spoken by the most people) (b) English is the persistent language of international business (c) the Americans speak it and its as much their arrogance / introvert nature that means they will always use their own *******isation of the language (d) the English are lazy ****ers and dont feel the need to learn other languages - myself included!

Also we invented speaking and so we is right, yeah?

Is English (American) actually the most widely spoken language Rog?
I have a feeling it may be Spanish and in many U.S. States now there is a legal requirement for all signs to be translated into Spanish.