OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[swaledale]

I'm not playing down the contribution of the Uk, but the US were helping with much needed food and equipment long before they entered the war, but without their involvement we alone would not have had the force to invade and ultimately defeat the germans. As My dad who served in Burma said, Thank God the Japanese were thick enough to attack the the US!

[Ram59]

I'm not playing down the contribution of the Uk, but the US were helping with much needed food and equipment long before they entered the war, but without their involvement we alone would not have had the force to invade and ultimately defeat the germans. As My dad who served in Burma said, Thank God the Japanese were thick enough to attack the the US!

But you do keep highlighting the fact that we have a moat around our island and the involvement of the USA and Russia. But without the resolve of the British people, the moat, the USA and the Russians would not have stopped Hitler.

Also, you claim that by being together in one union of countries, we'll be less likely to go to war with each other. Please tell us how many European countries have gone to war with each other in the last 70 years. The only wars I can think of are the ones between the various states of yugoslavia and the 2 halves of the Ukraine. These were about people who wanted independence from each other. Do we also see Catalonia going down the same path?

[MadAmster]

Oops! Fall outs already between ‘Tony’ Amster and ‘Gordon’ Ramjet.

Maybe a Cabinet is forming...’Amster - PM, Ramjet - Chancellor (best at counting), KCG - Deputy Leader, (because he knows a lot but keeps a low profile), MoP - Home Secretary (longevity...but only if he stops the Farage references), Chief Secretary to the Treasury - Manx.
I’ll do Education ‘cos it’s all I really know about and I like arguing with Roger.
Andy Faber...Housing and Homelessness, Adi...Culture Secretary, Mista...Minister of Sport, Foreign Secretary...Rom...’cos he lives there, Chief Whip...Swale (who else?) Pensions...OTR and Mactm (so much experience), Defence...Ram59, Foreign Aid...anyone but Ram59, Secretary of State for Exiting EU...no longer required (sorry Ram59 ).

Still a few posts to fill...but it’s your Party, MA...and you can cry if you want to.

I had an online chat with 2 friends yesterday and told them of my musings of reversing globalisation, curtailing the banks and the money markets...... they both said that "if the idea looks like being a success your manifesto will be your death warrant, they will take you out".

That may be right but somebody has to take the risk and grab back power from the elite. Democracy is supposed to be "Government of the people, by the people, for the people". Politicians are supposed to represent us, ALL of us and not just their cronies. I am trying very hard to come up with a country that has that type of democracy and keep coming up blank.

[swaledale]

But you do keep highlighting the fact that we have a moat around our island and the involvement of the USA and Russia. But without the resolve of the British people, the moat, the USA and the Russians would not have stopped Hitler.

Also, you claim that by being together in one union of countries, we'll be less likely to go to war with each other. Please tell us how many European countries have gone to war with each other in the last 70 years. The only wars I can think of are the ones between the various states of yugoslavia and the 2 halves of the Ukraine. These were about people who wanted independence from each other. Do we also see Catalonia going down the same path?

Exactly since WW" and the initial formation of the Eu's predecessor there hasn't been war in europe apart from the Balkan states which have always been a problem, so you have just agreed with the point I made. You need to read the history of europe in the 50 years up to the end of WW2 to understand the full picture.

Your kind of overlooking the fact that it is very unlikely that the resolve of the British people would stopped the german advance but for the Moat! We were in fast retreat and its was the Moat that stopped that.

We did not stop Hitler, we contributed to defeating him sure, but in reality without the Russians and Americans we would have been ****ed - we were very close to losing the battle of Britain despite the undoubted bravery and sacrifice made by UK and many other nationalities.

[ramAnag]

Exactly since WW" and the initial formation of the Eu's predecessor there hasn't been war in europe apart from the Balkan states which have always been a problem, so you have just agreed with the point I made. You need to read the history of europe in the 50 years up to the end of WW2 to understand the full picture.

Your kind of overlooking the fact that it is very unlikely that the resolve of the British people would stopped the german advance but for the Moat! We were in fast retreat and its was the Moat that stopped that.

We did not stop Hitler, we contributed to defeating him sure, but in reality without the Russians and Americans we would have been ****ed - we were very close to losing the battle of Britain despite the undoubted bravery and sacrifice made by UK and many other nationalities.

Game...Set...and Match!

[AdiSalisbury]

Back onto Brexit, I've just discovered through my self assessment that 1.1% of my Tax / NI is spent on the UK contribution to the EU budget. No opinion on whether that's a fair amount, but thought I'd share none-the-less.

[roger_ramjet]

It is, as I have said all along, further proof that the EU doesn't cost us that much really and thus economically speaking the exit decision does not truly stack up. But its the federalism and cohesion that kill it for me.

I wonder if that 1.1% is the gross or net cost after what we get back out of it? If it comes from HMRC I would imagine it is gross as they wouldn't necessarily have access to the monies we receive from EU via the CAP, capital grants etc. So in reality the net cost is probably under 1%

Still more interestingly for those Brexiteers who have determined not to join the "taxpayers club" then it sort of costs them nothing to stay in! Amazing how you can spin figures isnt it

[swaledale]

It is, as I have said all along, further proof that the EU doesn't cost us that much really and thus economically speaking the exit decision does not truly stack up. But its the federalism and cohesion that kill it for me.

I wonder if that 1.1% is the gross or net cost after what we get back out of it? If it comes from HMRC I would imagine it is gross as they wouldn't necessarily have access to the monies we receive from EU via the CAP, capital grants etc. So in reality the net cost is probably under 1%

Still more interestingly for those Brexiteers who have determined not to join the "taxpayers club" then it sort of costs them nothing to stay in! Amazing how you can spin figures isnt it

With the UK in and with its Veto then the federalism would not really be an issue for us, but as I've said all along, the likely scenario is that we will be in alignment on regulations etc., allowing the trade to continue and the Eu without us blocking anything to continue down a path which is most likely doomed to failure.

[ramAnag]

It is, as I have said all along, further proof that the EU doesn't cost us that much really and thus economically speaking the exit decision does not truly stack up. But its the federalism and cohesion that kill it for me.

I wonder if that 1.1% is the gross or net cost after what we get back out of it? If it comes from HMRC I would imagine it is gross as they wouldn't necessarily have access to the monies we receive from EU via the CAP, capital grants etc. So in reality the net cost is probably under 1%

Still more interestingly for those Brexiteers who have determined not to join the "taxpayers club" then it sort of costs them nothing to stay in! Amazing how you can spin figures isnt it

Sure you’re right Rog, but you might need some haemorrhoid cream from all this fence sitting.

[Ram59]

With the UK in and with its Veto then the federalism would not really be an issue for us, but as I've said all along, the likely scenario is that we will be in alignment on regulations etc., allowing the trade to continue and the Eu without us blocking anything to continue down a path which is most likely doomed to failure.

This veto we have is diminishing greatly over the years. Every time there is a new treaty, more and more decisions are made by an 80% majority vote. How many years will it be before the veto will be completely taken away? Out of interest, does anyone know how many times we have used our veto in recent years despite losing 1 in 8 votes on various EU policies?

[roger_ramjet]

Sure you’re right Rog, but you might need some haemorrhoid cream from all this fence sitting.

Sooner have a bit of cream there than someone else's.....

just in jest!

[ramAnag]

Sooner have a bit of cream there than someone else's.....

just in jest!

Lol...Roger Ramjet...voted Remain...immediately saw the wisdom in ‘Leave’...taunts the ‘Remoaners’...until he does the figures...then returns to Remain...RR, aka, ‘The Reluctant (W)Recksiteer’

Just in jest!
Happy New Year.

[swaledale]

This veto we have is diminishing greatly over the years. Every time there is a new treaty, more and more decisions are made by an 80% majority vote. How many years will it be before the veto will be completely taken away? Out of interest, does anyone know how many times we have used our veto in recent years despite losing 1 in 8 votes on various EU policies?

We have a Veto on the following.

Common Foreign and Security Policy (with the exception of certain clearly defined cases which require qualified majority, e.g. Appointment of a special representative)
Citizenship – the granting of new rights to EU citizens
New EU membership
Harmonisation of national legislation on indirect taxation
EU finances (own resources, the multiannual financial framework)
Certain provisions in the field of justice and home affairs (the European prosecutor, family law, operational police cooperation, etc.)
Harmonisation of national legislation in the field of social security and social protection.

The UK also has opt-outs in some areas so EU decisions in those areas do not apply to the UK, this includes decisions about the euro, the Schengen area and some areas of justice and home affairs policy.

Of course votes are not the only manner in which the UK had influence over the EU, the items that get to a vote are generally only ones that the EU is confident there is agreement on, so counting votes is really not a true picture.

[swaledale]

Great post, Agreed with everything you said there except for the (to those who cling on (as many a Brexit supporter does) you forgot to put in IMO.

Fair point MOP.

[BaaLocks]

And now Nigel Mirage, traumatised that he hasn't made the front page of the Mirror for at least ten days, decides to go for the headline grabber by suggesting we might just need a second referendum to kill off the argument for a generation.

Four things can happen as a result of this:

The result is conclusive to Brexit: everyone admits we got it right first time and the Remainers have their squib dampened

The result is a repeat of last time, minimal win to Brexit: we carry on as before, though with Remainers unable to lodge the 'we didn't know what we were voting for' argument

The result is a gentle swing to remain: Brexit is cancelled

The result is a significant swing to remain: Brexit is cancelled

Of all of those the option that would worry me most would be option three, where we move to a gentle majority for Brexit and I see some potential real social issues emerging if this is the case. We would need some sort of caveat in the wording of the vote to effectively suggest that the swing must be significant enough to warrant a change of direction.

Is this political spin from Mirage to do anything to get back in the limelight? Does he have a point? Do we care given we've probably already gone past the point of no return?

I'm inclined to agree with him actually, which is the strangest twist and turn of this ever more crazy political journey - six months ago I would have said there wasn't a statement that could come out of his lips that I could agree with. Ho hum, what did I know?