OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[roger_ramjet]

...

But surely the way to sort out the things you speak of is to remain and show the reasonableness of our case rather than strop off.

After 45 years of banging that drum for change you can see why people give up on that strategy. They will never change

[MadAmster]

...and then they riot over the price of Nutella! In Seine!

But surely the way to sort out the things you speak of is to remain and show the reasonableness of our case rather than strop off.

MoP...first Mr. Mirage and now the well spoken anachronistic idiot Rees-Mogg. Now I know for sure you’re having a laugh. WUM

In a sensible world you would be spot on. The problem is that we are faced with an EU Commission who are hell bent on implementing the end game that was planned for, despite being heavily denied for decades, when the original 6 joined the Common Market.

What is the Commission's answer to the situation? They have planned more and more "Brussels" power and influence rather than the less and less that many ordinary folk want. Even this week, President Macron has said that if he were to hold an in/our referendum in Framce right now then the people would vote to leave...... I would hazard a guess that the same would be true of Germany and Holland as well. The people want to go one way, the Commission is pulling everybody in a diametrically opposite direction.

Utter madness IMO.

[ramAnag]

But is it not true that, because of the internet and instant forms of communication, ‘ordinary people’ are more empowered to bring about change than ever before?
I’m not necessarily a believer in ‘power to the people’ because I’m not convinced the ‘people’ are always knowledgeable enough but politicians now do seem more accountable than ever.
Whatever the institution...school, business, parish, sports club, music club or EU you are never going to change things for the better by quitting. Hang on in there and use reason to win the argument.

[Rob_the_Ram]

The way the EU works reminds me of when Dorores Umbridge took over at Hogwarts.
And that was unbelievable too!

[roger_ramjet]

But is it not true that, because of the internet and instant forms of communication, ‘ordinary people’ are more empowered to bring about change than ever before?

Yes you are right - ordinary people are more empowered to comment on mindless crap about celebrities via the internet et al, but how this medium could be used to change a heavyweight leviathan bent on a path of potentially mutual self destruction ius a very different question?

However if the people have the right and ability to achieve this change, why are you so disdainful of their most recent change motion - voting for Brexit. You cannae have it both ways sonny.

[ramAnag]

Yes you are right - ordinary people are more empowered to comment on mindless crap about celebrities via the internet et al, but how this medium could be used to change a heavyweight leviathan bent on a path of potentially mutual self destruction ius a very different question?

However if the people have the right and ability to achieve this change, why are you so disdainful of their most recent change motion - voting for Brexit. You cannae have it both ways sonny.

Take your point completely Rog and recognise the paradox.
I doubt that things would have changed so spectacularly over matters such as Hillsborough, Rotherham, Brexit etc before the age of the Internet but I do recognise that most/many would rather ‘gossip’ about celebrities.

The Internet and most especially the ability of virtually everyone to photograph and instantly ‘post’ examples of the ‘establishment’ behaving badly has and is changing everything imo. The problem is perhaps that this facility is not always used as a force for good and I am ‘disdainful’ of the vote for Brexit precisely because, even in this ‘age of communication’, there was so much misinformation which unfortunately the Internet also helped perpetuate.

[roger_ramjet]

.... and of course that would never happen on other subjects? That would be false or fake news and we all know that this is never put out there...

[Ram59]

After 45 years of banging that drum for change you can see why people give up on that strategy. They will never change

I think the saying is 'flogging a dead horse'

[ramAnag]

.... and of course that would never happen on other subjects? That would be false or fake news and we all know that this is never put out there...

Of course it would...and it does but, imo, Brexit is a classic example of the ‘people’ being empowered to reach a decision based upon the deliberate manipulation of misinformation.

[roger_ramjet]

Unlike going to war in Iraq?

[Manofpride]

Of course it would...and it does but, imo, Brexit is a classic example of the ‘people’ being empowered to reach a decision based upon the deliberate manipulation of misinformation.

That's the way it's always worked even for a general election, all parties go out to get your vote in anyway possible and once in power go about it in a different way. Hats off to Donald Trump at least he's trying to give the voters what he promised!

[ramAnag]

That's the way it's always worked even for a general election, all parties go out to get your vote in anyway possible and once in power go about it in a different way. Hats off to Donald Trump at least he's trying to give the voters what he promised!

Referenda and General Elections are a little different though MoP...the former being much more specific meaning that greater truthfulness might be expected...naive I know.

Congratulations anyway...approval for Rees-Mogg and Trump in consecutive days...you only need to declare your support for Henry Bolton - possibly the most irrelevant fool in politics - and you’ll have the hat trick.

[MadAmster]

Unlike going to war in Iraq?

... or unlike the US going to war with Vietnam following the non-attack of the USS Maddox in the Gulf of Tonkin by North Vietnam. The attack never happened.

[ramAnag]

Unlike going to war in Iraq?

I must have missed the referendum on that.

[Manofpride]

Congratulations anyway...approval for Rees-Mogg and Trump in consecutive days...you only need to declare your support for Henry Bolton - possibly the most irrelevant fool in politics - and you’ll have the hat trick.

I'll have to think who else I can bring into the frame for my hat-trick as I can tell you for definite it won't be Henry Bolton. I had no idea who he was until his wife gave birth on a train. Farage should have stayed at the helm until we were actually out! Not been impressed with any of them since Farage stood down.