OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Andy_Faber]

Sorry MA, I don’t think you’ve thought this through. You really can’t compare a General Election with a Referendum. In the former there is a choice of at least three and sometimes up to eight or ten candidates so a ‘minority’ winner will often prove victorious. The Referendum was a two choice vote and relies entirely upon people being fully informed about what they are voting about. If a 50% + 1 majority was achieved the Remainers would no longer have a case, but only 37% voted for something the conditions of which still, 21 months on, are unclear so...other than in the minds of those who want it to be so...how can it have any credibility?

I think one point you've missed or ignored when I have made it a few times, is that the majority of the population NEVER fully understand what they are voting for, and couldn't actually care less. I have a large family group who would vote for a particular one of our two major parties come what may, even if their major manifesto pledges was a potato-only diet and the the return of serf-beating. Likewise Brexit, most people (and I mean most people I have had the discussion with before and since) couldn't give a sh*t about the effect on 'The City', 'The Irish Border', 'Gibraltar' or whatever and how fiendishly difficult/impossible it is of course to resolve them (we do agree on that bit), they for the most part chose one issue that boiled their blood and voted on that basis. Most that I know voted on 'Sovereignty', or 'immigration' (and most of them on non-EU immigration, so effectively a protest vote), when you, I and I reckon all the jolly pranksters contributing here know that each of those issues is massively nuanced - but such further detail is irrelevant to most of the voting/non voting public. And that's not labelling them 'thick', just 'prepared to have their say based on how they feel'. If you think we as individuals should only make decisions based on perfect information, that's surely wrong.

[MadAmster]

Sorry MA, I don’t think you’ve thought this through. You really can’t compare a General Election with a Referendum. In the former there is a choice of at least three and sometimes up to eight or ten candidates so a ‘minority’ winner will often prove victorious. The Referendum was a two choice vote and relies entirely upon people being fully informed about what they are voting about. If a 50% + 1 majority was achieved the Remainers would no longer have a case, but only 37% voted for something the conditions of which still, 21 months on, are unclear so...other than in the minds of those who want it to be so...how can it have any credibility?

Because of the rules under which the referendum was run.

[ramAnag]

I think one point you've missed or ignored when I have made it a few times, is that the majority of the population NEVER fully understand what they are voting for, and couldn't actually care less. I have a large family group who would vote for a particular one of our two major parties come what may, even if their major manifesto pledges was a potato-only diet and the the return of serf-beating. Likewise Brexit, most people (and I mean most people I have had the discussion with before and since) couldn't give a sh*t about the effect on 'The City', 'The Irish Border', 'Gibraltar' or whatever and how fiendishly difficult/impossible it is of course to resolve them (we do agree on that bit), they for the most part chose one issue that boiled their blood and voted on that basis. Most that I know voted on 'Sovereignty', or 'immigration' (and most of them on non-EU immigration, so effectively a protest vote), when you, I and I reckon all the jolly pranksters contributing here know that each of those issues is massively nuanced - but such further detail is irrelevant to most of the voting/non voting public. And that's not labelling them 'thick', just 'prepared to have their say based on how they feel'. If you think we as individuals should only make decisions based on perfect information, that's surely wrong.

I take your points but to me what is ‘surely wrong’ is that we are taking probably the biggest step this country has taken in the last half century based on an ill informed conclusion reached by just 37%.
It’s repetitive I know, to the point of being monumentally boring, but then so is Derby’s lack of a decent midfielder and wideman but until they’re properly addressed people will ‘bang on’ about it...and rightly so.
Since what you describe as a ‘protest vote’ happened many things have become much more apparent including quite how disastrous Brexit may well prove to be for this country.
I am not a patriot as such but I do care about the well being of my country. A terrible mistake was made, imo, in June 2016. Quite how terrible is becoming ever more evident. Ironically part of the Brexiteers’ argument was built around the EU challenging the sovereignty of Parliament in which case let’s make this a decision made by a sovereign Parliament.
The people have spoken and what they said was confused, divisive, inarticulate and largely the result of misinformation. Let Parliament note what the people said...let them also take full account of what has become apparent since that fateful day and let Parliament make full use of its sovereignty by having a free vote on what is now best for the country. That is how Parliamentary democracy works...not sure what the Brexiteers are afraid of but it speaks volumes to me that two of the most decent but ardent supporters of Brexit on here have seen the necessity to take out Dutch and Irish citizenship in recent weeks. Why should that be so if all in the garden is rosy?

[roger_ramjet]

I take your points but to me what is ‘surely wrong’ is that we are taking probably the biggest step this country has taken in the last half century based on an ill informed conclusion reached by just 37%.
It’s repetitive I know, to the point of being monumentally boring, but then so is Derby’s lack of a decent midfielder and wideman but until they’re properly addressed people will ‘bang on’ about it...and rightly so.
Since what you describe as a ‘protest vote’ happened many things have become much more apparent including quite how disastrous Brexit may well prove to be for this country.
I am not a patriot as such but I do care about the well being of my country. A terrible mistake was made, imo, in June 2016. Quite how terrible is becoming ever more evident. Ironically part of the Brexiteers’ argument was built around the EU challenging the sovereignty of Parliament in which case let’s make this a decision made by a sovereign Parliament.
The people have spoken and what they said was confused, divisive, inarticulate and largely the result of misinformation. Let Parliament note what the people said...let them also take full account of what has become apparent since that fateful day and let Parliament make full use of its sovereignty by having a free vote on what is now best for the country. That is how Parliamentary democracy works...not sure what the Brexiteers are afraid of but it speaks volumes to me that two of the most decent but ardent supporters of Brexit on here have seen the necessity to take out Dutch and Irish citizenship in recent weeks. Why should that be so if all in the garden is rosy?

You know that I have had a boring day when you realise that I have gone back through the posts on this thread and this is the 117th ramAnag post whingeing on about the 37% "minority" majority vote in favour of Brexit which quotes this figure - or other similar ones. You'd have thought we would have all agreed with him by now - if we were ever going to do so: but we haven't.

That's 3.54% of the posts on this thread which make the same (fallacious/irrelevant) point. And they sat remainers are not bettier and twisted!!!!

[Ram59]

I take your points but to me what is ‘surely wrong’ is that we are taking probably the biggest step this country has taken in the last half century based on an ill informed conclusion reached by just 37%.
It’s repetitive I know, to the point of being monumentally boring, but then so is Derby’s lack of a decent midfielder and wideman but until they’re properly addressed people will ‘bang on’ about it...and rightly so.
Since what you describe as a ‘protest vote’ happened many things have become much more apparent including quite how disastrous Brexit may well prove to be for this country.
I am not a patriot as such but I do care about the well being of my country. A terrible mistake was made, imo, in June 2016. Quite how terrible is becoming ever more evident. Ironically part of the Brexiteers’ argument was built around the EU challenging the sovereignty of Parliament in which case let’s make this a decision made by a sovereign Parliament.
The people have spoken and what they said was confused, divisive, inarticulate and largely the result of misinformation. Let Parliament note what the people said...let them also take full account of what has become apparent since that fateful day and let Parliament make full use of its sovereignty by having a free vote on what is now best for the country. That is how Parliamentary democracy works...not sure what the Brexiteers are afraid of but it speaks volumes to me that two of the most decent but ardent supporters of Brexit on here have seen the necessity to take out Dutch and Irish citizenship in recent weeks. Why should that be so if all in the garden is rosy?

Well the country wasted billions of pounds and lost hundreds of lives on an ill informed conclusion reached by just 0.01% of the population, namely parliament when voting to invade Iraq! Why are they any better placed to decide on our future?

[Andy_Faber]

Since what you describe as a ‘protest vote’ happened many things have become much more apparent including quite how disastrous Brexit may well prove to be for this country.

ardent supporters of Brexit on here have seen the necessity to take out Dutch and Irish citizenship in recent weeks. Why should that be so if all in the garden is rosy?

I still think those same people aren't really bothered about the detail, last night's Panorama was interesting in showing that people are continuing to pedal their entrenched/bigoted/ill informed views on both sides of the argument, almost completely oblivious to whats been going on. If you haven't watched that by the way, check it out, there's enlightenment in both directions if you can see through the BBC fog, notably the few wise words from a clearly passionate NHS doctor from Portugal.

I hope you aren't including me in 'ardent supporter of Brexit', I'm just an ardent supporter of 'bl**dy getting on with it' now the decision's made. And, chaotic as the Conservatives are at present, they will deliver a Brexit 'the people' like because they know that if they don't they'll be gone in 2022 and we'll never see them again

[ramAnag]

Well the country wasted billions of pounds and lost hundreds of lives on an ill informed conclusion reached by just 0.01% of the population, namely parliament when voting to invade Iraq! Why are they any better placed to decide on our future?

Fair point Rammy...I’m sure Parliament has made some atrocious decisions and, as you know, I have little faith in the present incumbents.
I do however believe they’re better equipped to decide on such an important and complex issue than many of those who were only deemed fit to vote by virtue of being over eighteen and not yet dead.
I would also point out that your example of Iraq is another case of of a monumentally bad and misguided decision being made on the basis of complete misinformation. Will we never learn?

Andy...clearly the reference to ‘ardent’ supporters who had recently taken Dutch and Irish passports was to you and the Amster. You’ve defended Brexit on countless occasions even though you voted Remain. I really don’t follow this ‘just get on with it’ logic...if you believe a direction or decision is wrong then when was it ever a good idea to compound things by following what is perceived as a wrong/mistaken route forward?

[ramAnag]

You know that I have had a boring day when you realise that I have gone back through the posts on this thread and this is the 117th ramAnag post whingeing on about the 37% "minority" majority vote in favour of Brexit w
hich quotes this figure - or other similar ones. You'd have thought we would have all agreed with him by now - if we were ever going to do so: but we haven't.

That's 3.54% of the posts on this thread which make the same (fallacious/irrelevant) point. And they sat remainers are not bettier and twisted!!!!

Jeez Rog, you’re a sad sod sometimes. You’ve actually counted back and then worked out the percentage?
I’m neither ‘bettier’ or twisted and the point is neither fallacious nor irrelevant...it just hasn’t been answered properly despite being raised by former PM John Major only last week.
I’m not whinging either...there’s a debate here which is approaching 3500 posts...it’s become repetitive and boring...but until someone produces a game changing argument/strategy which doesn’t rely on the absurd ‘Will of the People’ argument it will continue to be my stance.
P.S. That’s 118!

[MadAmster]

I am all for the old EEG. All against the US of E which will be the next morph of the EU.

[ramAnag]

I am all for the old EEG. All against the US of E which will be the next morph of the EU.

Which is a perfectly reasonable position to take, but when was an argument ever won by alienating and ostracising ourselves and when did chucking the baby out with the bathwater become a sensible strategy?

[MadAmster]

... when Camoron decided not to put "push for devolving most of the powers Brussels had given itself".

[Andy_Faber]

Which is a perfectly reasonable position to take, but when was an argument ever won by alienating and ostracising ourselves and when did chucking the baby out with the bathwater become a sensible strategy?

You aren't going to get your rerun RA so wouldn't a more productive approach be to wait until the dust has settled and then, if things go your way, just tell us 'I told you so'?

[ramAnag]

You aren't going to get your rerun RA so wouldn't a more productive approach be to wait until the dust has settled and then, if things go your way, just tell us 'I told you so'?

No pleasure in being proved right as the country goes to hell in a handcart Andy. It’s still not too late.

[Ram59]

Fair point Rammy...I’m sure Parliament has made some atrocious decisions and, as you know, I have little faith in the present incumbents.
I do however believe they’re better equipped to decide on such an important and complex issue than many of those who were only deemed fit to vote by virtue of being over eighteen and not yet dead.
I would also point out that your example of Iraq is another case of of a monumentally bad and misguided decision being made on the basis of complete misinformation. Will we never learn?

Andy...clearly the reference to ‘ardent’ supporters who had recently taken Dutch and Irish passports was to you and the Amster. You’ve defended Brexit on countless occasions even though you voted Remain. I really don’t follow this ‘just get on with it’ logic...if you believe a direction or decision is wrong then when was it ever a good idea to compound things by following what is perceived as a wrong/mistaken route forward?

Am I not correct in thinking that parliament, the well informed people you'd rather made the decision wether to leave the EU, ultimately DID have the power to reject the referendum result, but despite all the evidence pointing against leaving, they still agreed to back brexit.

[ramAnag]

Am I not correct in thinking that parliament, the well informed people you'd rather made the decision wether to leave the EU, ultimately DID have the power to reject the referendum result, but despite all the evidence pointing against leaving, they still agreed to back brexit.

Wow...of all the people I didn’t expect to accept that the Referendum was only ever ‘advisory’ you’d have been top of the list, Ram.
You’re right of course, but in the same way as Trump can’t afford to upset the ‘gun lobby’ so politicians in this country - Labour and Tory alike - are now reluctant to stand accused of going against the ‘Will of the People’ no matter how much sense it makes.
I’d tell you that this ‘Will of the People’ doesn’t really exist but it’d only set Ramjet off counting again.