OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

I know exactly what you mean about the BS elections and AGM’s, Ram and I take absolutely no notice either but, tbf...we aren’t provided with information about the different candidates, we aren’t bombarded with lies, untruths and exaggerations and the outcome doesn’t decide the future of our country.
We live in a Parliamentary Democracy...the formation of that Parliament was ours to decide...we decided via the General Election who should be in Parliament and then, bizarrely, we decided to give Joe Public a chance to decide on an infinitely more complex matter.
A minority of Joe Public launched a massive protest vote and the majority either didn’t side with the protest, weren’t interested or able to vote or decided they didn’t know enough to decide, so the protest vote ‘won’ and now we’re stuck with following the views of the minority even though it seems more complicated and likely to lead to self harm every day.
Where’s the sense? Let Parliament decide.

[Andy_Faber]

I know exactly what you mean about the BS elections and AGM’s, Ram and I take absolutely no notice either but, tbf...we aren’t provided with information about the different candidates, we aren’t bombarded with lies, untruths and exaggerations and the outcome doesn’t decide the future of our country.
We live in a Parliamentary Democracy...the formation of that Parliament was ours to decide...we decided via the General Election who should be in Parliament and then, bizarrely, we decided to give Joe Public a chance to decide on an infinitely more complex matter.
A minority of Joe Public launched a massive protest vote and the majority either didn’t side with the protest, weren’t interested or able to vote or decided they didn’t know enough to decide, so the protest vote ‘won’ and now we’re stuck with following the views of the minority even though it seems more complicated and likely to lead to self harm every day.
Where’s the sense? Let Parliament decide.

It wasn't a protest vote RA, it was the 'voice of the people' even if it wasn't (in your opinion) 'the will of the people'. I think you demean the electorate by saying it was a protest vote

[ramAnag]

It wasn't a protest vote RA, it was the 'voice of the people' even if it wasn't (in your opinion) 'the will of the people'. I think you demean the electorate by saying it was a protest vote

Of course it was a ‘protest vote’, Andy. Whenever else have ‘the people’ showed any ‘interest’ in the EU?
Having been wound up by the right wing press the ‘masses’ saw the opportunity to give the establishment a kick up the backside over two perceived issues...the unelected bureaucracy of Brussels and the lack of control over immigration.
There is an element of truth in both issues and, imo, those concerns need to be addressed, but all that has happened is that the masses have empowered the crazies to chuck the proverbial baby out with the bath water and send us on the road to regressive ruin.
What 37% most certainly isn’t is the ‘voice of the people’ and if you still think it is then what would you call the remaining 63%?

[macstheman]

The 63 per cent consist of me and others who voted to stay, but it also includes those who ain't interested and who left it to those that were to decide. A decision was reached and it is the right decision because those that voted say it is!!

[ramAnag]

The 63 per cent consist of me and others who voted to stay, but it also includes those who ain't interested and who left it to those that were to decide. A decision was reached and it is the right decision because those that voted say it is!!

C’mon mac...you’re better than that. Is the ‘Sun’ a better newspaper than the ‘i’ because more people read it...is Jilly Cooper a better novelist than Charles Dickens because she sold more books...does ‘Coronation Street’ provide better drama than William Shakespeare because more people watch it?
That’s just populist nonsense...a decision cannot be judged to be ‘right’ because it attracted the most votes. What if the voters were misled and misinformed...is it still the ‘right’ decision?
Hypothetically, if a decision was somehow reached to say that the age of consent should be lowered to twelve, that it was okay to drink and drive after all, or that Derby County should always play in red would you just shrug and say...well if that’s what the voters want?
Of course you wouldn’t...because you can think for yourself and recognise that there’s a difference between ‘winning’ and reaching the ‘right’ decision.

[macstheman]

According to our democracy the right decision was reached and I will support it!! You might not think it is right but you might be wrong!!

[ramAnag]

According to our democracy the right decision was reached and I will support it!! You might not think it is right but you might be wrong!!

No mac...according to our democracy a decision was reached - well sort of - whether it was the right one or not remains to be seen, but ‘according to our democracy’, those who think it may be harmful have every right to challenge it, especially in such circumstances.

[macstheman]

I agree, there is every right to challenge any decision in our democracy. That does'nt make the decision wrong! You or me thinking it was wrong does'nt make it wrong.

[Manofpride]

Roll on Friday, 29 March 2019. That's when we'll see the improvements start and the propaganda stop!

[Trickytreesreds]

It’s not over till...trying to think of a relevant fat lady...anyway...I suspect it’s not all over yet Andy.
That’s not the point though...the only reason for trotting out those figures (again) is that Brexiteers like Tricky keep claiming that the majority or, in his exact words, ‘half the electorate’ voted their way...that his view represents the ‘Will of the people’ and that is simply untrue and not even close to being factually correct.

Oh behave Ramanag.
Do tell me, what the turn out was for that referendum and its relation to any other vote we have had in this country?
By your definition, no government should ever be allowed to take power, because not everyone voted it in.
"Counting Officers have verified that a total of 33,568,184 ballot papers will be included in the count for the referendum. Based on a confirmed electorate of 46,500,001, turnout at the referendum was 72.2 percent,"

We vote/we don't vote. It's how we do things.

I can't help it, if you are so full of EU bull, that you keep insisting on another re run to get what what you want.
What if you did win by the same margin?
Would you call that one wrong as well and remand another vote?
No of course you wouldn't. I can't help it, if your safe Liberal countryside life shields you from the EU debris.
Good luck to you. I'm on the side of 17 year olds, I have interviewed, struggling to get a job because a firm would rather hire a 25 year old east european. Rather than pay for training costs. You enjoy your business class flights around europe, there's a good lad.

[Andy_Faber]

I'm on the side of 17 year olds, I have interviewed, struggling to get a job because a firm would rather hire a 25 year old east european.

Cutting away all the spite from that post, a job in itself, this is a good point that I see a lot - the company I work for have NO interest in investing in training of the indigenous UK workforce when they can hire cheaper from EU countries where the equiv labour is cheaper. I'm not actually sure why that's not racial discrimination, and I'm not talking about strawberry pickers I'm talking about engineers etc

PS Tricky I'm flying business class to Europe on saturday, is that OK or does it make my opinion invalid?

[ramAnag]

Oh behave Ramanag.
Do tell me, what the turn out was for that referendum and its relation to any other vote we have had in this country?
By your definition, no government should ever be allowed to take power, because not everyone voted it in.
"Counting Officers have verified that a total of 33,568,184 ballot papers will be included in the count for the referendum. Based on a confirmed electorate of 46,500,001, turnout at the referendum was 72.2 percent,"

We vote/we don't vote. It's how we do things.

I can't help it, if you are so full of EU bull, that you keep insisting on another re run to get what what you want.
What if you did win by the same margin?
Would you call that one wrong as well and remand another vote?
No of course you wouldn't. I can't help it, if your safe Liberal countryside life shields you from the EU debris.
Good luck to you. I'm on the side of 17 year olds, I have interviewed, struggling to get a job because a firm would rather hire a 25 year old east european. Rather than pay for training costs. You enjoy your business class flights around europe, there's a good lad.

So, as ever...wrong, wrong and wrong again...but don’t let the facts get in the way of your preconceptions.

1) Multi choice General Elections and single issue Referenda are entirely different.
2) I’ve never asked for a re-run. What’s the point of repeating a flawed formula? Take on board the message - the advisory element - and let Parliament decide with a free vote is what I’ve consistently advocated should happen.
3) I’ve chosen to live in a rural location after spending my career working in a far from safe urban environment. I actually seem to be surrounded by Brexiteers here but wtf has where I live got to do with you anyway?
4) I suspect I’ve worked with and helped a damned sight more teenagers and school leavers than you...wow you’ve interviewed a few...big deal!
5) The nearest I’ve been to a business class flight around Europe is ‘Priority Boarding’ with Ryanair...I’m off there tomorrow by coincidence...driving via the Tunnel.

Come back when you show even the slightest ability to grasp the simplest of facts Tricky.

[Trickytreesreds]

Cutting away all the spite from that post, a job in itself, this is a good point that I see a lot - the company I work for have NO interest in investing in training of the indigenous UK workforce when they can hire cheaper from EU countries where the equiv labour is cheaper. I'm not actually sure why that's not racial discrimination, and I'm not talking about strawberry pickers I'm talking about engineers etc

PS Tricky I'm flying business class to Europe on saturday, is that OK or does it make my opinion invalid?

The point was AF, Ramanag, obviously has a cushy well earned life. I take my hat off to him. He lives in a nice place and is completely devoid shielded from the downsides of EU membership.
If it effected him as directly as it does the kids I come across. He may think a little differently. Can't get a flat or afford one. Can't get a job because no one will train them.
The inner cities are becoming an underclass of suppressed wages and conditions. That is the main reason folks wanted out. How worse off can they be?

Cameron used this vote to gain political points. Being the total berk he is, he had no understanding of how deep rooted the discontent was/is in this country,
Had Europe showed him some respect, he may have avoided it.
They didn't, they spanked his arse like a spoiled monkey for contesting the "plan".
The cry went out for "more union"

What we left with?
A massive rise in right leanings across Europe. East Europe is a powder keg and they aren't being intimidated.
The Italians have woken up, to the un employment/debt nightmare and voted accordingly. Even Germany has a shift in power. It isn't the utopia they think it is.

Ramanag, says we should trust parliament to make the right decision for us. Really? Why would any sane person do that? From *** scandals, to tax payers decorating their properties no bloody way.

Untouchables-

http://www.eutruth.org.uk/traitors.html

[Andy_Faber]

The point was AF, Ramanag, obviously has a cushy well earned life. I take my hat off to him. He lives in a nice place and is completely devoid shielded from the downsides of EU membership.
If it effected him as directly as it does the kids I come across. He may think a little differently. Can't get a flat or afford one. Can't get a job because no one will train them.
The inner cities are becoming an underclass of suppressed wages and conditions. That is the main reason folks wanted out. How worse off can they be?

Cameron used this vote to gain political points. Being the total berk he is, he had no understanding of how deep rooted the discontent was/is in this country,
Had Europe showed him some respect, he may have avoided it.
They didn't, they spanked his arse like a spoiled monkey for contesting the "plan".
The cry went out for "more union"

What we left with?
A massive rise in right leanings across Europe. East Europe is a powder keg and they aren't being intimidated.
The Italians have woken up, to the un employment/debt nightmare and voted accordingly. Even Germany has a shift in power. It isn't the utopia they think it is.

Ramanag, says we should trust parliament to make the right decision for us. Really? Why would any sane person do that? From *** scandals, to tax payers decorating their properties no bloody way.

Untouchables-

http://www.eutruth.org.uk/traitors.html

If you refrained from your 'personals' (such as on RA) your views might be a bit more respected, what little he's given away suggests he has had enough **** on his shirtsleeves to deserve a bit of respite, he's certainly been at the sharp end more than me.

There's validity in a lot of what you say elsewhere in that, although dumping all of that 17-year-old's woes at the door of EU is taking it too far, there is still a lot of 'survival of the fittest/smartest' going on, and I'll give a mention to parental support here, the support of an encouraging/mentoring/switched on parent makes a big difference to prospects, I know the government offer 'help and advice' but compared to good parents that offering stands no chance

Cameron being a berk I'll go with.

[Trickytreesreds]

Last one.
We see all the talk about the vote being wrong and Parliament should decide what's good for us. Have folks actually considered the shenanigans that led us to the current plight?
I wouldn't trust any of them and to allow the EU even more control would be insane, IMO.

http://www.vernoncoleman.com/euillegally.html